Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 44 guests

Houdini/MA

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Houdini/MA
Post by Sigs   » Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:21 pm

Sigs
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1485
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:09 pm

Does anyone else find the need for Houdini a little lacking? I mean they had Darius for decades if not centuries why not move all of their sensitive research and development projects there? Having any research facility that deals with exclusively MA research on Mesa seems like you would be asking for trouble. If all of your sensitive leadership, construction, research and development and personnel were at Darius rather than Mesa would there be anything for the Intelligence team of Zilwicki and Cachet to find and bring back to shed light on the existence of the MA? It seems that for a long term conspiracy that seems to cover all of it's tracks they keep on screwing up on the most basic of things and improvising when improvisation is not needed.

Having to evacuate a lot of people who didn't need to be there in the first place seems to suggest that the MA is institutionally stupid or criminally arrogant.


They have been planning a war for literally centuries and at the end of centuries of preparation and planning it seems like they are collectively a slacker high school student who had 4 months to write an essay and is doing all the work the night before it's due.


They have planned for 600 years and only ended up with one system under direct MA control building for the MA. If something happens to the RF there is no Plan B because Darius is hidden but it is only one system with a limited population that deals with the construction of the MA's fleet.

What has the MA actually accomplished in the span of 600 years that would have required those 600 years? I mean everything they have set up and build could have been set up and build in 100 years... or maybe even 50.
Top
Re: Houdini/MA
Post by Weird Harold   » Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:48 am

Weird Harold
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4478
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:25 pm
Location: "Lost Wages", NV

Sigs wrote:What has the MA actually accomplished in the span of 600 years that would have required those 600 years? I mean everything they have set up and build could have been set up and build in 100 years... or maybe even 50.


They were using Manpower Inc as a cover for their genetic improvements on their Prime Lines. They needed Manpower's supply of genetic slaves for testing and refining their Ubermensch genetics. Manpower could do all sorts of unethical, Illegal, and inhuman modifications and testing because "everyone knew" Manpower was evil and inhumane; there would be no hint of the MAlign influence and direction in Manpower's activities because "everyone knew everything they needed to know" about Manpower.

Mesa was the starting point for the Detweiler's Grand Plan and they had a couple of centuries before the Felix Wormhole was discovered. At that point, much of the inner core of the Onion did move to Darius. (Once slaves had made it habitable and established the comforts of civilization, that is.) But much of the outer layers of the Onion were already established on Mesa and depended on interaction with the greater civilization for testing and confirmation that the Malign Primes were indeed superior to "normals." Those outer layers didn't need to know about Darius but they were useful cogs in the overall organization.

Without Mesa as a cutout, the MAlign would have to conduct any business with "Normals" via the Felix Wormhole and/or a long voyage through Hyper. That would leave far more traces pointing to Darius than routing everything through Mesa -- all traces of malign movements would point to the known villains instead of the secret puppet-masters.
.
.
.
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
Top
Re: Houdini/MA
Post by JohnRoth   » Sat Nov 05, 2016 12:08 am

JohnRoth
Admiral

Posts: 2438
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:54 am
Location: Centreville, VA, USA

I'm seeing the opposite problem: how do they maintain their C&C loop from Darius without it being detected? Before leaving Mesa, they could hide everything except messages that actually needed a special courier in the usual traffic of Manpower and Jessyk to and from Mesa.

Afterward, well, there is very little traffic to and from Darius, and while they could use Felix and The Twins as second distribution points, those are still systems that there is normally no traffic to or from; they're also planning on giving Felix to Mannerheim with two of the four remote termini. That will make it quite a bit more difficult to move traffic through two "invisible" termini in the junction.

The final problem is that the outer layer, the "Mesan Alignment" rather than the MAlign, is where they get most of their recruits. The original plan, to leave stealthily over a period of several years and then presumably trigger a slave revolt to cover the disintegration of governmental and other systems when the puppet masters are no longer there, was something they should have started a lot earlier. At the minimum, they should have started it the minute they heard of the Lynx terminus being discovered. That would have given them at least another year to pull people out vewy, vewy qwietly.
Top
Re: Houdini/MA
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Sat Nov 05, 2016 2:37 pm

Loren Pechtel
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1324
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2015 8:24 pm

JohnRoth wrote:The final problem is that the outer layer, the "Mesan Alignment" rather than the MAlign, is where they get most of their recruits. The original plan, to leave stealthily over a period of several years and then presumably trigger a slave revolt to cover the disintegration of governmental and other systems when the puppet masters are no longer there, was something they should have started a lot earlier. At the minimum, they should have started it the minute they heard of the Lynx terminus being discovered. That would have given them at least another year to pull people out vewy, vewy qwietly.


Even then it doesn't work because when the GA comes knocking they find no evidence of the Oyster Bay stuff. If it really had been Mesa behind it they should find the tech there.

I made a thread about this before. Houdini is fundamentally flawed in that by the time they could see the need to initiate it it's too late to cover all their tracks. Removing all the relevant people doesn't address the issue of what the GA doesn't find. It could only be successful if initiated when nobody is looking--but why would the initiate it then?
Top
Re: Houdini/MA
Post by n7axw   » Sat Nov 05, 2016 2:55 pm

n7axw
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5997
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:54 pm
Location: Viborg, SD

The fundamental flaw in houdini as it was actually executed was that it was so noisy. Now they have everyone wondering what happened and there is no way they managed to cover up all their tracks. Something will turned out to have slipped and give away the game.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
Top
Re: Houdini/MA
Post by C. O. Thompson   » Sat Nov 05, 2016 6:21 pm

C. O. Thompson
Captain of the List

Posts: 700
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 2:32 pm
Location: Thompson, CT USA

n7axw wrote:The fundamental flaw in houdini as it was actually executed was that it was so noisy. Now they have everyone wondering what happened and there is no way they managed to cover up all their tracks. Something will turned out to have slipped and give away the game.

Don

-


Good point Don, Houdini is like the rescue of Trisk's family in HFQ but it was too noisy and don't forget that Zilwicki has had his hooks into the computers for quite a while. Naturally he and Victor are going to ask why and more to the point, where did the Detwiller's go... They will dig up something that they can use to track the MA leadership.

So maybe to the first comment, it was useful to crack the thing wide open in order for David to put the story to the most satisfactory conclusion.
Someone who had early access to the Shadows of Victory said that it covers only a short period of time (in the story line) but a lot can happen in a few hours.
Just my 2 ₡ worth
Top
Re: Houdini/MA
Post by kzt   » Sun Nov 06, 2016 12:21 am

kzt
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 11360
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:18 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

C. O. Thompson wrote:Naturally he and Victor are going to ask why and more to the point, where did the Detwiller's go... They will dig up something that they can use to track the MA leadership.

Very, very few people know about the existence of Detwiller. So no, they won't be asking that question. And if they find the answer it won't do them a lot of good. :twisted:
Top
Re: Houdini/MA
Post by SYED   » Sun Nov 06, 2016 2:21 am

SYED
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1345
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:03 pm

We know that Mesa established a slave world on torch, and arranged for Felix to be guarded. The twins are left with some forces even though it is in a barren region of space.
I think the Felix junction has ar least two other termini. So I wonder if there is a slave world or false flag operation here.
Top
Re: Houdini/MA
Post by Weird Harold   » Sun Nov 06, 2016 6:30 am

Weird Harold
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4478
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:25 pm
Location: "Lost Wages", NV

SYED wrote:I think the Felix junction has ar least two other termini. So I wonder if there is a slave world or false flag operation here.


The Felix Junction has four termini.

Darius,

The Twins,

And two unspecified, other than noting that they are "secret" Jessyk Combine routes. They are known to the Mannerheim SDF as justification for trying to gain clear title to the Felix system -- not that they're telling the various claimants to the system about the wormhole.
.
.
.
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
Top
Re: Houdini/MA
Post by C. O. Thompson   » Sun Nov 06, 2016 11:19 am

C. O. Thompson
Captain of the List

Posts: 700
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 2:32 pm
Location: Thompson, CT USA

kzt wrote:
C. O. Thompson wrote:Naturally he and Victor are going to ask why and more to the point, where did the Detwiller's go... They will dig up something that they can use to track the MA leadership.

Very, very few people know about the existence of Detwiller. So no, they won't be asking that question. And if they find the answer it won't do them a lot of good. :twisted:


OK but very few is not ... none at all and, I believe the adage that two people can keep a secret as long as one is dead may enter into this.

Amazon tracking said my copy was not shipped yet but was arriving on Nov 7 - 8 so, soon I will know what David has in mind for the galaxy's greatest hacker and... I gotta think that the hooks he put into the system will turn up something... maybe the flight plan of a sudden flurry of ships.
Just my 2 ₡ worth
Top

Return to Honorverse