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Im wondering about desertion and mutiny in the solarian navy

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Re: Im wondering about desertion and mutiny in the solarian
Post by GabrialSagan   » Mon Oct 17, 2016 10:42 pm

GabrialSagan
Lieutenant (Senior Grade)

Posts: 76
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:57 pm

Vince wrote:I don't think enough time has passed for the information to get out to all of the far-flung SLN forces, especially with wormholes being closed by the Star Empire slowing down the flow of information (as of the end of Cauldron of Ghosts). And then it will take multiple incidents of SLN forces being defeated for the individual SLN officer's to begin to get through the inclination to not believe them, and only then will their arrogance begin to erode.


Between Saltash, Spindle, and especially Manticore I think that the message that Manticoran war-fighting technology severely outmatches anything the SLN has available. That message should have disseminated across the entire League even without the wormhole network within seven months of news of 11th fleet's utter defeat reaches Sol which I believe was mid June 1922 P.D. So by January 1 1923 P.D. I think it is safe to assume that most of the Solarian arrogance will have been dealt with as they come to terms with the reality of their circumstances.

I still stand by the idea of using the POWs as bargaining chips with the individual system governments is a good tactic. That and offering asylum to Solarian deserters.
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Re: Im wondering about desertion and mutiny in the solarian
Post by The E   » Tue Oct 18, 2016 3:28 am

The E
Admiral

Posts: 2704
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 1:28 pm
Location: Meerbusch, Germany

robert132 wrote:Actually there is at least one historic precident for a "bottom up" (more or less) fleet mutiny.

Britain"s Royal Navy, 1797, the Nore and Spithead mutinies paralized the Channel Fleet with England then at war with France.

I won't go into any detail, those are available through any number of sites but the point is, it happened and perhaps, just maybe if the right cards fall just right a major portion of the SLN could mutiny or declare itself "neutral" rather than risk wholesale death and destruction (suicide) at the hands of the Manty and Haven Navies.


Given the situation, I think the more appropriate historical precedent to use would be the Kiel mutiny of 1918, where the german High Seas Fleet mutinied against orders to conduct a final battle against the Royal Navy.
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Re: Im wondering about desertion and mutiny in the solarian
Post by kaid   » Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:01 pm

kaid
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 108
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:08 pm

kzt wrote:It's unclear. A fair number of militaries have pretty much fought to the last bullet. But the whole "what are you fighting for" question with the SL seems difficult to find a really convincing answer.


Frontier fleet ships honestly are more likely to keep fighting until unless they can find a safe harbor because they know the kind of stuff they have done to a lot of worlds and they know without some strong guardian to accept them they are going to wind up strung up or shot more likely than not. Battle fleet may wind up with more desertions or just not bothering to show up to a fight because their hands are a lot less dirty than frontier fleets are and are less likely to have permanent solutions applied to them if they surrender.
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Re: Im wondering about desertion and mutiny in the solarian
Post by phillies   » Wed Oct 26, 2016 11:30 pm

phillies
Admiral

Posts: 2077
Joined: Sat Jun 19, 2010 9:43 am
Location: Worcester, MA

The Correct Answer, of course, is to present all members of the Navy with the true facts of the matter:

The Solarian League Navy is Invincible

Recently, there has been interest in the alleged battle of Monica. If one were to believe unpublished reports, a variety of miscellaneous neobarbarian ships encountered and destroyed three battlecruisers of contemporary design. The asserted engagement is not necessarily believable.

However, a variety of sources indicate what actually happened, and confirm the well known irrefuteable fact that the Solarian League Navy is totally invincible.

First, the battle cruisers had previously found their way through mysterious means to the hands of another neobarbarian state. Instead of leaving well enough alone, the neobarbarian state had had the brilliant idea of reconfiguring engines, electronics, power supplies, and possibly even the location of the wine lockers, all presumably to improve what was known to be a flawless design. It is unsurprising that during these efforts minor technical errors were made. For example, based on some reports, it would appear that after replacing the power supplies someone forgot to rewire the point defense systems to a source of power.

Second, the reported ships in the battle are wildly at variance with a reasonable interpretation of what ships were actually present. For example, we are invited to believe that the Monica space navy had not one, not two, but perhaps sixteen or twenty battle cruisers. The actual number must have been two, one of which was being modified at the time of the battle. In addition our sources within the neobarbarian areas have confirmed that the commander of the hostile neobarbarian force was the same commander who had previously been involved in the alleged battle between one neobarbarian cruiser and four of our cruisers of similar size and age. The analysis of the previous battle demonstrated that the neobarbarian warship was a dreadnought, it was in the company of a squadron of other dreadnoughts, and most of the neobarbarian dreadnoughts in the battle were destroyed by cruisers of our design mysteriously translocated to the battlefield.

It is entirely unbelievable that the same neobarbarian naval officer would find himself in two such engagements. The obvious conclusion is that the neobarbarian name in question is a nom de guerre randomly assigned to any neobarbarian officer who engages in a battle and is not totally wiped out. Alternatively, because of the neobarbarian use of hereditary offices, that neobarbarian officer in question had been reassigned to something harmless after his initial horrible defeat.

Just as in the prior battle, it is clear that the neobarbarian force was a squadron or more of dreadnoughts. The most obvious demonstration of this is that in the prior battle the neobarbarian officer was commanding a dreadnought, neobarbarians are inherently incapable of learning from experience, and therefore never demote incompetent officers, and therefore the neobarbarian officer in question must still have been commanding a dreadnought. It is still true that dreadnoughts never fly around by themselves, and therefore the neobarbarians must have had a squadron of dreadnoughts not to mention escorts. The neobarbarian mass advantage in this battle must have been approximately 40:1. Because only a single neobarbarian ship was honored as the victorious vessel of the battle, and only a few other vessels were noted as returning with damage, it appears that the neobarbarian side must have taken at least 50% losses destroyed and 50% losses severely damaged in this engagement, including most dreadnoughts engaged. On the other hand, the ship of our design with modifications was destroyed.

A reasonable estimate, given that other Monica space navy ships must have been involved, is that our ships are perhaps twenty times as effective on a mass basis as neobarbarian warships. Given the inherent limitations on such an estimate, this figure is consistent with the numbers generated on the basis of the prior battle.
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Re: Im wondering about desertion and mutiny in the solarian
Post by Maldorian   » Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:54 am

Maldorian
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 251
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:54 am

The Correct Answer, of course, is to present all members of the Navy with the true facts of the matter:

The Solarian League Navy is Invincible

Recently, there has been interest in the alleged battle of Monica. If one were to believe unpublished reports, a variety of miscellaneous neobarbarian ships encountered and destroyed three battlecruisers of contemporary design. The asserted engagement is not necessarily believable.

However, a variety of sources indicate what actually happened, and confirm the well known irrefuteable fact that the Solarian League Navy is totally invincible.

First, the battle cruisers had previously found their way through mysterious means to the hands of another neobarbarian state. Instead of leaving well enough alone, the neobarbarian state had had the brilliant idea of reconfiguring engines, electronics, power supplies, and possibly even the location of the wine lockers, all presumably to improve what was known to be a flawless design. It is unsurprising that during these efforts minor technical errors were made. For example, based on some reports, it would appear that after replacing the power supplies someone forgot to rewire the point defense systems to a source of power.

Second, the reported ships in the battle are wildly at variance with a reasonable interpretation of what ships were actually present. For example, we are invited to believe that the Monica space navy had not one, not two, but perhaps sixteen or twenty battle cruisers. The actual number must have been two, one of which was being modified at the time of the battle. In addition our sources within the neobarbarian areas have confirmed that the commander of the hostile neobarbarian force was the same commander who had previously been involved in the alleged battle between one neobarbarian cruiser and four of our cruisers of similar size and age. The analysis of the previous battle demonstrated that the neobarbarian warship was a dreadnought, it was in the company of a squadron of other dreadnoughts, and most of the neobarbarian dreadnoughts in the battle were destroyed by cruisers of our design mysteriously translocated to the battlefield.

It is entirely unbelievable that the same neobarbarian naval officer would find himself in two such engagements. The obvious conclusion is that the neobarbarian name in question is a nom de guerre randomly assigned to any neobarbarian officer who engages in a battle and is not totally wiped out. Alternatively, because of the neobarbarian use of hereditary offices, that neobarbarian officer in question had been reassigned to something harmless after his initial horrible defeat.

Just as in the prior battle, it is clear that the neobarbarian force was a squadron or more of dreadnoughts. The most obvious demonstration of this is that in the prior battle the neobarbarian officer was commanding a dreadnought, neobarbarians are inherently incapable of learning from experience, and therefore never demote incompetent officers, and therefore the neobarbarian officer in question must still have been commanding a dreadnought. It is still true that dreadnoughts never fly around by themselves, and therefore the neobarbarians must have had a squadron of dreadnoughts not to mention escorts. The neobarbarian mass advantage in this battle must have been approximately 40:1. Because only a single neobarbarian ship was honored as the victorious vessel of the battle, and only a few other vessels were noted as returning with damage, it appears that the neobarbarian side must have taken at least 50% losses destroyed and 50% losses severely damaged in this engagement, including most dreadnoughts engaged. On the other hand, the ship of our design with modifications was destroyed.

A reasonable estimate, given that other Monica space navy ships must have been involved, is that our ships are perhaps twenty times as effective on a mass basis as neobarbarian warships. Given the inherent limitations on such an estimate, this figure is consistent with the numbers generated on the basis of the prior battle.


Oh yes, that´s the way the solarians can explain it!
The big Problem of the manticorians is, that all surviving solarians are their prisoners. Nobody Returns home and tell the truth about the battles and it is hard to belive the Facts that a neobabarian gives you.
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Re: Im wondering about desertion and mutiny in the solarian
Post by munroburton   » Thu Oct 27, 2016 6:37 am

munroburton
Admiral

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Maldorian wrote:Oh yes, that´s the way the solarians can explain it!
The big Problem of the manticorians is, that all surviving solarians are their prisoners. Nobody Returns home and tell the truth about the battles and it is hard to belive the Facts that a neobabarian gives you.


Some are, though. Besides Admiral O'Cleary, there are Rear Admiral Pyun, Commodore Chalker, Captain Myau and their crews. Granted, Chalker didn't bring back any useful data, but the other two were able to observe battlecruiser-killing salvos and go home.
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Re: Im wondering about desertion and mutiny in the solarian
Post by Louis R   » Fri Oct 28, 2016 10:40 am

Louis R
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1298
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:25 pm

And like Yahara after Okinawa, the mere fact that they returned - that they were _allowed_ to return, in some cases - puts their honor, and their reliability, in question.

It's only to be expected that they would claim that the ISLN isn't truely invincible :)

munroburton wrote:
Maldorian wrote:Oh yes, that´s the way the solarians can explain it!
The big Problem of the manticorians is, that all surviving solarians are their prisoners. Nobody Returns home and tell the truth about the battles and it is hard to belive the Facts that a neobabarian gives you.


Some are, though. Besides Admiral O'Cleary, there are Rear Admiral Pyun, Commodore Chalker, Captain Myau and their crews. Granted, Chalker didn't bring back any useful data, but the other two were able to observe battlecruiser-killing salvos and go home.
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Re: Im wondering about desertion and mutiny in the solarian
Post by npadln   » Sat Oct 29, 2016 12:11 am

npadln
Commander

Posts: 214
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:12 pm

phillies wrote:The Correct Answer, of course, is to present all members of the Navy with the true facts of the matter:

The Solarian League Navy is Invincible

Recently, there has been interest in the alleged battle of Monica. If one were to believe unpublished reports, a variety of miscellaneous neobarbarian ships encountered and destroyed three battlecruisers of contemporary design. The asserted engagement is not necessarily believable.

However, a variety of sources indicate what actually happened, and confirm the well known irrefuteable fact that the Solarian League Navy is totally invincible.

First, the battle cruisers had previously found their way through mysterious means to the hands of another neobarbarian state. Instead of leaving well enough alone, the neobarbarian state had had the brilliant idea of reconfiguring engines, electronics, power supplies, and possibly even the location of the wine lockers, all presumably to improve what was known to be a flawless design. It is unsurprising that during these efforts minor technical errors were made. For example, based on some reports, it would appear that after replacing the power supplies someone forgot to rewire the point defense systems to a source of power.

Second, the reported ships in the battle are wildly at variance with a reasonable interpretation of what ships were actually present. For example, we are invited to believe that the Monica space navy had not one, not two, but perhaps sixteen or twenty battle cruisers. The actual number must have been two, one of which was being modified at the time of the battle. In addition our sources within the neobarbarian areas have confirmed that the commander of the hostile neobarbarian force was the same commander who had previously been involved in the alleged battle between one neobarbarian cruiser and four of our cruisers of similar size and age. The analysis of the previous battle demonstrated that the neobarbarian warship was a dreadnought, it was in the company of a squadron of other dreadnoughts, and most of the neobarbarian dreadnoughts in the battle were destroyed by cruisers of our design mysteriously translocated to the battlefield.

It is entirely unbelievable that the same neobarbarian naval officer would find himself in two such engagements. The obvious conclusion is that the neobarbarian name in question is a nom de guerre randomly assigned to any neobarbarian officer who engages in a battle and is not totally wiped out. Alternatively, because of the neobarbarian use of hereditary offices, that neobarbarian officer in question had been reassigned to something harmless after his initial horrible defeat.

Just as in the prior battle, it is clear that the neobarbarian force was a squadron or more of dreadnoughts. The most obvious demonstration of this is that in the prior battle the neobarbarian officer was commanding a dreadnought, neobarbarians are inherently incapable of learning from experience, and therefore never demote incompetent officers, and therefore the neobarbarian officer in question must still have been commanding a dreadnought. It is still true that dreadnoughts never fly around by themselves, and therefore the neobarbarians must have had a squadron of dreadnoughts not to mention escorts. The neobarbarian mass advantage in this battle must have been approximately 40:1. Because only a single neobarbarian ship was honored as the victorious vessel of the battle, and only a few other vessels were noted as returning with damage, it appears that the neobarbarian side must have taken at least 50% losses destroyed and 50% losses severely damaged in this engagement, including most dreadnoughts engaged. On the other hand, the ship of our design with modifications was destroyed.

A reasonable estimate, given that other Monica space navy ships must have been involved, is that our ships are perhaps twenty times as effective on a mass basis as neobarbarian warships. Given the inherent limitations on such an estimate, this figure is consistent with the numbers generated on the basis of the prior battle.


Who is this work of fiction aimed at? If it is the general public, fine, I guess. Don't want any panic there. But if it is aimed at enlisted to mid level military personal shouldn't such a statement resemble something THEY could swallow? Eventually statements like this are going to be confronted with whispers through the grape vine; scuttle-but. The "expiry date" on this little bit of fiction is good for what, one-three months?
If it were me I would make some substitutions and mix in, "the good training and professionalism of Fleet personal when confronted with modern and heavily armed belligerents staved off what could have been an even worse result than what occurred. Obviously our forces met the challenge, not seen in centuries, and acquitted themselves admirably. However this is a wake up call and a reminder to us that just outside the frontiers of civilized space there resides savagery and barbarism; but as long as we remember that our training, our force strength and the League we stand for is the greatest this galaxy has ever seen, then sure as 2+2=4, all those with League blood on their hands and evil in their hearts will be confronted and dispatched as needs be. Have no doubt about this one thing; we have learned a lesson, next time they will learn the kind of lesson only the SLN can teach. The threat will be dealt with as threats for the last thousand years have always been dealt with;swiftly and with finality."
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