why the honorverse would be full of dead planets

My objection is as it always was. Other than if there'd be any dead planets, they'd be fighting over prolong.

If not that, then I really can't agree that someone like the MAlign wouldn't go around trashing the competition. They have, at present, unequalled technological superiority that tips the scales decisively.

In what amounts to the edge given America with the first atomic weapons -- we didn't hesitate to use it while we had the advantage and before someone else could also develop it and rebalance the scales -- who could do anything? Why should the MAlign really care about what anyone could do in the future, unless they too can equal MAlign technology which has taken them centuries to develop, in addition to locating them? America didn't care what Japan might do in the future. And dropping a few atomic bombs was as close to an Eridani strike at the time as we could muster.

The MAlign could destroy Manticore, Haven, Beowulf, Andermani and Grayson -- if the premise of this thread became a reality.

Why wouldn't it really be the smart thing to do instead of convenient plot? How many centuries would it take for those wronged to recover? Those alive anyways. And they'd still be fighting with the inferior weapons they had when they were Eradanited!

You misread - I didn't say 30 degrees, I said 30 minutes.

And not only is it likely the telescopes would include x-ray systems, since you need them for some significant observations of chromospheric activity, but the emissions from the incoming would be significant in the UV as well, and that's where the primary monitoring would be happening.

Loren Pechtel wrote:

Louis R wrote:Neither am I, but in any case the Sun only subtends an angle of 30', and simple orbital mechanics says that you will get more than that in curvature of the trajectory [correct calculation at that distance is in the realm of GR, so don't have exact figure]. This is easily allowed for, of course, but means you have to be rather far from a straight line from star to planet, so the launch point will in fact be quite visible. And, since this configuration requires launching in the orbital plane of the system, which is the filthiest part of it, your ship, if it even makes it that far, will have been a very prominent source on the sky for days to weeks before that.

I don't follow your logic as to the degree of turn. The surface gravity of the sun is 274 m/s^2. My calculus is far too rusty so I'll make a simplification: All the deflection happens while the rock is within 5 diameters of the star, but it's at the full surface gravity. (Note that this greatly overstates the answer.) That's 11 mkm, 37 seconds. 274 m/s^2 * 37 seconds = 10.1 km/s. A 20,000th of it's velocity. To get a 30 degree deflection this would have to be half it's velocity.

As for who points telescopes at the Sun? Everyone with any concern for space weather, of course, which means anyone with any space presence and a modicum of intelligence, since not even Honorverse rad shielding is going to make small craft and EVA personnel invulnerable. Which, again, means that this is going undetected only in systems where you don't need to sneak up on people. Going into orbit and flushing all your toilets in an Icey BM strike would probably do the job.

But they won't be x-ray telescopes. I'm sure the space weather equipment will pick this up, just not in time to sound the alarm.

Well Cthia, in the case of Manticore, the MAlign still need a boogyman for their plans.
It's just that Apollo made them more of a BoogyKingKong.

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Annachie wrote:Well Cthia, in the case of Manticore, the MAlign still need a boogyman for their plans.
It's just that Apollo made them more of a BoogyKingKong.

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Indeed they do Annachie.

But if they'd stop being the wussies that they are, they'd realize that they were now the 800# boogeyman. If they'd change their plans and decide to take off their gloves, they wouldn't need anyone to handle their light work!

"Comply. Or die."

The US didn't care what Japan would possibly do to them in the future and Japan certainly knew where the US was. No one even knows where the MA are. Much less are able to do anything.

And, as I said, centuries when the wronged cowboy has all grown up and come alooking the much older but wiser cowboy that wronged him, he's still going to be fighting with the same inferior pistol against the Rifleman's rifle. A more experienced Rifleman. The MA's weapons will have become even more advanced.

I imagine one thing that can surely found in Aldona's head...

"It is easy to destroy a planet's entire navy"...

Destroy a CLAC and orphan its LACs.
Destroy a planet and orphan its navy.
—Anisimovna

cthia wrote:But if they'd stop being the wussies that they are, they'd realize that they were now the 800# boogeyman. If they'd change their plans and decide to take off their gloves, they wouldn't need anyone to handle their light work!

"Comply. Or die."

That would be a major, major gamble. If they started killing planets left and right, everyone would know they existed, and everybody with a meaningful navy would be looking for them. So it would come down to whether anybody could find Darius before the Mesans could kill every nation capable of supporting a meaningful navy.

Given that Manticore never found Bolthole, it might work. But it's a huge risk.

Also, the MAlign is set up in "work from the shadows" mode. They'd basically have to destroy all interstellar trade, all interstellar-capable civilization except their own. I don't think that fits their plans.

cralkhi wrote:

cthia wrote:But if they'd stop being the wussies that they are, they'd realize that they were now the 800# boogeyman. If they'd change their plans and decide to take off their gloves, they wouldn't need anyone to handle their light work!

"Comply. Or die."

That would be a major, major gamble. If they started killing planets left and right, everyone would know they existed, and everybody with a meaningful navy would be looking for them. So it would come down to whether anybody could find Darius before the Mesans could kill every nation capable of supporting a meaningful navy.

Given that Manticore never found Bolthole, it might work. But it's a huge risk.

Also, the MAlign is set up in "work from the shadows" mode. They'd basically have to destroy all interstellar trade, all interstellar-capable civilization except their own. I don't think that fits their plans.

But that's the rub. Their plan went awry, off the tracks, derailed, out of order, interrupted. It even caused them to prematurely launch Houdini as I understand.

So, since the main players, the GA are very much aware of them, then the coast won't ever be clear until the GA is dealt with. Whenever the MA pokes their head up out of the darkened waters, the GA will attack. So, why don't they just go ahead and launch a preemptive strike, before the victims can fully recover, develop counter weapons and/or similar weapons of their own?

To destroy the scales before they are rebalanced. Deal the finishing blow. Under the heading of the premise of this thread, that is.

cthia wrote:

cralkhi wrote:
That would be a major, major gamble. If they started killing planets left and right, everyone would know they existed, and everybody with a meaningful navy would be looking for them. So it would come down to whether anybody could find Darius before the Mesans could kill every nation capable of supporting a meaningful navy.

Given that Manticore never found Bolthole, it might work. But it's a huge risk.

Also, the MAlign is set up in "work from the shadows" mode. They'd basically have to destroy all interstellar trade, all interstellar-capable civilization except their own. I don't think that fits their plans.

But that's the rub. Their plan went awry, off the tracks, derailed, out of order, interrupted. It even caused them to prematurely launch Houdini as I understand.

So, since the main players, the GA are very much aware of them, then the coast won't ever be clear until the GA is dealt with. Whenever the MA pokes their head up out of the darkened waters, the GA will attack. So, why don't they just go ahead and launch a preemptive strike, before the victims can fully recover, develop counter weapons and/or similar weapons of their own?

To destroy the scales before they are rebalanced. Deal the finishing blow. Under the heading of the premise of this thread, that is.

The answer to that is simple- they don't have the tools to do it. The OB strike used every MA resource to accomplish 1/2 the goals of the original plan, using training and eval units to accomplish what should have been done with capital ships. As the MA leadership pointed out, the mission's success was due to intense prep, a completely unaware enemy, and a decently sized dallop of luck. A repeat of a mission of that scale will invite failure, and any use of the current assets may cause them to be captured and analyzed, letting the cat out of the bag well before the fleet if Detweilers is completed.

cthia wrote:

cralkhi wrote:
That would be a major, major gamble. If they started killing planets left and right, everyone would know they existed, and everybody with a meaningful navy would be looking for them. So it would come down to whether anybody could find Darius before the Mesans could kill every nation capable of supporting a meaningful navy.

Given that Manticore never found Bolthole, it might work. But it's a huge risk.

Also, the MAlign is set up in "work from the shadows" mode. They'd basically have to destroy all interstellar trade, all interstellar-capable civilization except their own. I don't think that fits their plans.

But that's the rub. Their plan went awry, off the tracks, derailed, out of order, interrupted. It even caused them to prematurely launch Houdini as I understand.

So, since the main players, the GA are very much aware of them, then the coast won't ever be clear until the GA is dealt with. Whenever the MA pokes their head up out of the darkened waters, the GA will attack. So, why don't they just go ahead and launch a preemptive strike, before the victims can fully recover, develop counter weapons and/or similar weapons of their own?

To destroy the scales before they are rebalanced. Deal the finishing blow. Under the heading of the premise of this thread, that is.

Theemile wrote:The answer to that is simple- they don't have the tools to do it. The OB strike used every MA resource to accomplish 1/2 the goals of the original plan, using training and eval units to accomplish what should have been done with capital ships. As the MA leadership pointed out, the mission's success was due to intense prep, a completely unaware enemy, and a decently sized dallop of luck. A repeat of a mission of that scale will invite failure, and any use of the current assets may cause them to be captured and analyzed, letting the cat out of the bag well before the fleet if Detweilers is completed.

Aha! The Lenny Dets! Totally forgot about them. Thanks for reminder.

That makes sense. I've been beating myself up over the 'why won't they attack already?'


Something just occurred to me. Could it be that RFC's decision not to advance the timeline in SOV as much as we'd like had a little to do with the fact that the Lenny Dets aren't completed yet? IOW, his hands were tied? Because how long should it reasonably take to complete them?

cthia wrote:Something just occurred to me. Could it be that RFC's decision not to advance the timeline in SOV as much as we'd like had a little to do with the fact that the Lenny Dets aren't completed yet? IOW, his hands were tied? Because how long should it reasonably take to complete them?

IIRC*, The MA's build times for larger similar class ships are about a year or so longer than Manticore's, because they haven't got quite the building efficency of either Manticore or Haven (which has build times somewhere between Manticore and what I recall of the MA). Smaller class ships take months longer than for the GA.

*And I'm not sure where I read that, so take it with a grain of salt.

MaxxQ wrote:

cthia wrote:Something just occurred to me. Could it be that RFC's decision not to advance the timeline in SOV as much as we'd like had a little to do with the fact that the Lenny Dets aren't completed yet? IOW, his hands were tied? Because how long should it reasonably take to complete them?

IIRC*, The MA's build times for larger similar class ships are about a year or so longer than Manticore's, because they haven't got quite the building efficency of either Manticore or Haven (which has build times somewhere between Manticore and what I recall of the MA). Smaller class ships take months longer than for the GA.

*And I'm not sure where I read that, so take it with a grain of salt.

Not sure about the exact time scale, but you are correct about them not matching Manticore's build time. I just read that, believe it was in ART., after Oyster Bay when Detweiler was going to Darius to congratulate everyone.