"Obsolete SDs" Waste not...

Maldorian wrote:The most here wrote about the technical or the logistic side of the Problem with the captured solarian SD´s. I repeat my post from another Topic to Show another Problem.

Another Problem is the law. If you declare the solarian to pirates you can take their ships. If you are in war with the solarian league, you can take the ships.

But manticore is between two chairs. The Aggression acts of the solarian league would be enough to declare war to the league, but manticore don´t want a war.

On the other side, manticore give the solarian spacers the Status of prisioner of war. Normaly the could treat them as pirates, that means shoot every spacer a bullet in thead, but manticore doesn´t do that.

So, in the end, manticore can get diplomatic Trouble if they use the ships without the permission of the law.

Who would they get in diplomatic trouble with? The League? The MA?

Jonathan_S wrote:


The bigger concern (I would think), for the people taking possession, is whether the League is going to care about the legal niceties or whether they're going to want to try and make an example out of anyone willing to buy or accept captured League ships.

They will be training platforms first and foremost, that is why the GA would put pickets on systems that they are helping build a fleet.

They are not meant to fight the war with those ships, they are to be used to train the crew's to man new ships when they become available.

Castenea wrote:

munroburton wrote:For a real world example of diplomatic difficulties a large fleet presents when surrendered to an alliance of sovereign nations, see what was happening with the German fleet after WW1 before its scuttling.

Even if all three main GA members do not want to use the ships at all, they have to at least agree on a means of disposal. If dismantled for scrap, who does the scrapping and how is the scrap money to be divided? Given the scope of the GA's other problems, this is definitely a back-burner issue, so these ships will likely sit in a harmless, out of the way orbit for years if not decades.

While this does not apply to those ships captured at spindle, the rest of the objections do. It will take longer to refit them to standards compatible with the rest of the fleet than to build new. I would expect that stripping the SLN ships of perishables, small arms and light craft is proceeding apace.

I see the use of a handful of ships as destructive test beds, shooting galleries, and SAR training facilities. Doubt this would even consume ten ships.

Why would you need to refit anything? If the ship was damaged in combat it is cannibalized, if it is in working order, it is used as is for training purposes. You don't need to bring them to manticoran standards to train someone on them.

Sigs wrote:Because they are looking at them as weapons for war against the GA. For war with other enemies they are good weapons.

If you are using musket's for war against the modern US army they are useless but if you were to use those musket's against someone armed with muskets or say nothing at all they are very capable weapons. Those SD's would be useful for someone who plans on forging their own little pocket empire as long as they don't cross the GA.

If somebody had the manpower to run these and try to build a navy more power to them (as long as Manticore doesn't waste manpower or resources assisting that particular goal).

But it's not just against the GA that these aren't good weapons. The SLN SDs on a one for one basis aren't really good against anybody with 1905 PD Manticore or Haven equivalent tech. (which if they reactivate their yard would include Manticore's first war single-system ally, the Talbot system).

If we take a 1905-fit Majestic-class DN (not Manticore's newest design) and use that as a baseline for older tech, and compare it to a 1922 PD Scientist-class SD, I'd rate it at somewhere around 55-65% as effective per hull.
The Scientist has got 4 more broadside tubes (only 2 more if it has the Aegis mod - but then it's missile output is further cut by having to use some of its remaining tubes to throw CM canisters), but can fire less than 1/2 as often. It's got 10 less CM tubes, which also fire less than 1/2 as often. It's ECM (Halo) is probably a bit better, or can be made so, than the towed decoys in common use pre-war - but that's one of it's few bright points. Worse if you crunch the numbers from Mission of Honor you see it only has a 25% reserve in missile fire control - so it can only handle 8 more missiles per salvo than it's on-board tubes -- not even 1 full additional pod!

So it's inferiority gets worse in the face of towed pods, which are becoming available from sources outside the GA, or even ex-Allied nations like Erewhon and Andermandi. (Technodyne anyone?)


Also they're not good (enough) if you attract the ire of the SLN. Yes your ships are (by definition) equal one on one to theirs. But your crews probably aren't. And even if they are you can't man anywhere near the numbers of them the SLN can. So they can't defend, or even act as much of a deterrent, against the SLN's preferred strategy -- sending an overwhelming force directly at the home planet of their enemy.
Even against one of the few systems with a SD based SDF your new ships probably aren't enough - even if their ships are no better than yours they've had years to gain experience with them and probably have more in service than you'd be able to get and man from the captured stocks.


Against other people with no better tech level, and used simply to secure the orbitals of your home planet, they're better than nothing (as long as you can keep them running). But that same mission could be done by a more maintainable and flexible force of smaller ships backed by missile pods. And those would have a far better chance of protecting your shipping and resource extraction facilities as well. It's at least usable for this, but still seems sub-optimal.

Jonathan_S wrote:Against other people with no better tech level, and used simply to secure the orbitals of your home planet, they're better than nothing (as long as you can keep them running). But that same mission could be done by a more maintainable and flexible force of smaller ships backed by missile pods. And those would have a far better chance of protecting your shipping and resource extraction facilities as well. It's at least usable for this, but still seems sub-optimal.

Who is supplying these missile pods? And who is supplying the fire control and targe acquisition systems? And who is servicing the pods and maintaining the ships fire control and sensors?

Sigs wrote:E1) Surplus warships from Andermani, Beowulf, Erewhon, or other un-named sources.

E2) New Build warships from Erewhon or other un-named sources not part of the Grand Alliance.

And what happens when those ships are used by one of their new owners to conquer their neighbours? Or worse sell their tech to everyone? Over night the GA's one advantage is gone... and they are responsible for cleaning up the mess which would be all that much harder.[/quote]

The GA doesn't control who non-members of the GA -- Like the Anderman Empire, which was explicitly excluded from the GA -- sell ships of any kind to. The Andermani in particular have everything up to and including Apollo and short of going to war with the Andermani there's no way to stop them from selling surplus or obsolete ships to any successor state they wish.

Erewhon is already in the business of selling "Manticore Lite" ships to Maya. There is a universe of opportunity if the Erewhonese want to reinvest in more yards and sell to the highest bidders.

Who knows how many others have or can build star-ships or warships and can take a bare concept like "pod-dispensing warships" and design something workable. Who knows what new wrinkles they might come up with if they have to design from scratch; just look at what Grayson did when nobody would tell them how to build inertial compensators.

Castenea wrote:

munroburton wrote:For a real world example of diplomatic difficulties a large fleet presents when surrendered to an alliance of sovereign nations, see what was happening with the German fleet after WW1 before its scuttling.

Even if all three main GA members do not want to use the ships at all, they have to at least agree on a means of disposal. If dismantled for scrap, who does the scrapping and how is the scrap money to be divided? Given the scope of the GA's other problems, this is definitely a back-burner issue, so these ships will likely sit in a harmless, out of the way orbit for years if not decades.

While this does not apply to those ships captured at spindle, the rest of the objections do. It will take longer to refit them to standards compatible with the rest of the fleet than to build new. I would expect that stripping the SLN ships of perishables, small arms and light craft is proceeding apace.

I see the use of a handful of ships as destructive test beds, shooting galleries, and SAR training facilities. Doubt this would even consume ten ships.

Aye, Manticore has sole claim to the Spindle assets. But unlike at Manticore, they didn't have PoW facilities on Spindle. The supplies on their ships were probably tapped to provide for the PoWs, giving the authorities on Spindle a little more flexibility to arrange longer-term solutions.

The armouries and small craft certainly can be repurposed - although there's no guarantee the Sollies maintained them well.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Sigs wrote:Because they are looking at them as weapons for war against the GA. For war with other enemies they are good weapons.

If you are using musket's for war against the modern US army they are useless but if you were to use those musket's against someone armed with muskets or say nothing at all they are very capable weapons. Those SD's would be useful for someone who plans on forging their own little pocket empire as long as they don't cross the GA.

If somebody had the manpower to run these and try to build a navy more power to them (as long as Manticore doesn't waste manpower or resources assisting that particular goal).

But it's not just against the GA that these aren't good weapons. The SLN SDs on a one for one basis aren't really good against anybody with 1905 PD Manticore or Haven equivalent tech. (which if they reactivate their yard would include Manticore's first war single-system ally, the Talbot system).

If we take a 1905-fit Majestic-class DN (not Manticore's newest design) and use that as a baseline for older tech, and compare it to a 1922 PD Scientist-class SD, I'd rate it at somewhere around 55-65% as effective per hull.
The Scientist has got 4 more broadside tubes (only 2 more if it has the Aegis mod - but then it's missile output is further cut by having to use some of its remaining tubes to throw CM canisters), but can fire less than 1/2 as often. It's got 10 less CM tubes, which also fire less than 1/2 as often. It's ECM (Halo) is probably a bit better, or can be made so, than the towed decoys in common use pre-war - but that's one of it's few bright points. Worse if you crunch the numbers from Mission of Honor you see it only has a 25% reserve in missile fire control - so it can only handle 8 more missiles per salvo than it's on-board tubes -- not even 1 full additional pod!

So it's inferiority gets worse in the face of towed pods, which are becoming available from sources outside the GA, or even ex-Allied nations like Erewhon and Andermandi. (Technodyne anyone?)


Also they're not good (enough) if you attract the ire of the SLN. Yes your ships are (by definition) equal one on one to theirs. But your crews probably aren't. And even if they are you can't man anywhere near the numbers of them the SLN can. So they can't defend, or even act as much of a deterrent, against the SLN's preferred strategy -- sending an overwhelming force directly at the home planet of their enemy.
Even against one of the few systems with a SD based SDF your new ships probably aren't enough - even if their ships are no better than yours they've had years to gain experience with them and probably have more in service than you'd be able to get and man from the captured stocks.


Against other people with no better tech level, and used simply to secure the orbitals of your home planet, they're better than nothing (as long as you can keep them running). But that same mission could be done by a more maintainable and flexible force of smaller ships backed by missile pods. And those would have a far better chance of protecting your shipping and resource extraction facilities as well. It's at least usable for this, but still seems sub-optimal.

What I was suggesting is that a few SD's in the wrong hands can wreak havoc for the GA's plans even if they are not attacked directly. The Reserve SD's represent firepower, 5 or 6 of them represent a lot more firepower than most newly liberated systems will be able to get in a short amount of time.

Those SD's cannot fight against the SLN 1 vs 1, nor can they fight against the GA or it's associate powers. They can fight one of the 2,000 systems that are going to start popping up, they can oppress one of those 2,000 systems or even a dozen of them. This would mean the GA would have to disperse their strength further than it already has to in order to put down a few dozen would be warlords. If someone can capture a few SD's and man them with even subpar crew's they will be able to build quite the nice little empire of core worlds.

Capturing those shipyards will give anyone a boost in their economy, industry and war fighting ability. Those yards might very well be in efficient and slow to produce but that can be changed by someone motivated enough.

If the GA wants to have a chance to bring some order to the former league territory then they have to capture as much of the shipbuilding capability as they can, keep as much of the military hardware as they can out of the hands of would be warlords.


Those SD's might be obsolete against the GA but they will not be obsolete against those who have less ships or no ships at all. And once the League starts it's downward spiral the SLN will stop being a force to be worried about. At the end of the day all those trained crew's will have to go somewhere. As for the SDF's? If they have SD's they wont be the first target of any warlord, but they may be a threat all by themselves because they do have the trained manpower which might mean they would try to grab as many SD's as they can and grab as much of the shipbuilding capabilities as they can which might mean the exact opposite happens for the GA, a bunch of large successor states. How dangerous would a dozen core systems be to the GA in the long run if they are united under one flag? And if they manage to grab a good chunk of the SLN shipbuilding capabilities?

Weird Harold wrote:

Sigs wrote:E1) Surplus warships from Andermani, Beowulf, Erewhon, or other un-named sources.

E2) New Build warships from Erewhon or other un-named sources not part of the Grand Alliance.

And what happens when those ships are used by one of their new owners to conquer their neighbours? Or worse sell their tech to everyone? Over night the GA's one advantage is gone... and they are responsible for cleaning up the mess which would be all that much harder.

The GA doesn't control who non-members of the GA -- Like the Anderman Empire, which was explicitly excluded from the GA -- sell ships of any kind to. The Andermani in particular have everything up to and including Apollo and short of going to war with the Andermani there's no way to stop them from selling surplus or obsolete ships to any successor state they wish.

Erewhon is already in the business of selling "Manticore Lite" ships to Maya. There is a universe of opportunity if the Erewhonese want to reinvest in more yards and sell to the highest bidders.

Who knows how many others have or can build star-ships or warships and can take a bare concept like "pod-dispensing warships" and design something workable. Who knows what new wrinkles they might come up with if they have to design from scratch; just look at what Grayson did when nobody would tell them how to build inertial compensators.[/quote]


The GA might not be able to stop the Andermani from selling obsolete ships, but the Andermani are likely going to tread carefully all on their own. They will give technology and assistance only when they can control the outcome, giving someone even lite warships can have a negative outcome to them. The Andermani and Erewhowen know exactly where they stand, and they wont be selling warships and warfighting technology for the sake of making money because if they screw up they will be held responsible by the GA. I doubt that Erewhowen is selling the tech to Maya all on their own without getting at least some form of approval from Manticore.

For all non GA nations who have at least 1905 tech their security would depend on that tech advantage remaining for as long as possible. If they do anything that hurts the GA it will also hurt them as well. They will all look at the GA for guidance and protection whether they are a member or not and will likely not be too willing to sell out the people protecting them. And if they decide to ignore the GA's wishes, the GA can make its displeasure felt in many ways short of war.


And lastly, I doubt the concept of the SD(P) is going to remain a mystery, many will copy it quickly. The problem for them would be to get the technology to make an SD(P) a weapon to be feared. If you have only SLN level technology, building an SD(P) wouldn't give you that much of an advantage. So it would be best for the GA to be in the loop as much as they can with as many systems as they can in order to guide those systems but also to limit the potential surprises that come their way.

Sigs wrote:And lastly, I doubt the concept of the SD(P) is going to remain a mystery, many will copy it quickly. The problem for them would be to get the technology to make an SD(P) a weapon to be feared. If you have only SLN level technology, building an SD(P) wouldn't give you that much of an advantage. So it would be best for the GA to be in the loop as much as they can with as many systems as they can in order to guide those systems but also to limit the potential surprises that come their way.

deoends on who you're looking for an advantage over. An SD(P) built with SLN baseline tech should be significantly more capable that a Scientist or Vega class SD. You can definitely cram more fire control and point defense mounts if you dial back on broadside tubes and beams. That'll let you throw a heavier salvos that even those old designs could with towed pods (they seem seriously deficient in fire control links) and keep firing them far longer.

You'd probably be worth 3-4 of them even with the same tech.

You'd still be pretty ineffective against even Erewhin, much less the GA. But an SD(P) design is probably well worth doing as a first home designed Waller even if you can't apply higher tech.