Im wondering about desertion and mutiny in the solarian navy

Wilmington DE or Wilmington NC?
Important question in 1864!

HTM

Castenea wrote:{snip- htm}
(are we going to Washington, DC or Washington, PA?; only dropped a decimal point or five?)

jtg452 wrote:

pnakasone wrote:I think that may be a problem for the SLN as the marines have little confidence or respect for the majority of the navies office core. It may not take the crew that much to convince them to support the ship standing down in neutral space rather then getting destroyed fighting.

Where are you getting that?

The Marines are professionals. Not just professionals, but pretty hardcore pros at that. They don't have to respect the person to respect the position and to follow lawful orders. As professionals, they will do their jobs. So, on shipboard, part of that job is to put down mutiny. Unless they can be shown that the orders are illegal, I think it's going to be very, very hard to convince them to side with mutineers.

I just don't see them disobeying orders as quickly as some here seem to.

I agree. Indoctrination is indoctrination. Either you have it or you don't. Or there never was a Corps. If Marines can be so quick to switch allegiance, then they are no better than the mutineers.

jtg452 wrote:

pnakasone wrote:I think that may be a problem for the SLN as the marines have little confidence or respect for the majority of the navies office core. It may not take the crew that much to convince them to support the ship standing down in neutral space rather then getting destroyed fighting.

Where are you getting that?

The Marines are professionals. Not just professionals, but pretty hardcore pros at that. They don't have to respect the person to respect the position and to follow lawful orders. As professionals, they will do their jobs. So, on shipboard, part of that job is to put down mutiny. Unless they can be shown that the orders are illegal, I think it's going to be very, very hard to convince them to side with mutineers.

I just don't see them disobeying orders as quickly as some here seem to.

cthia wrote: I agree. Indoctrination is indoctrination. Either you have it or you don't. Or there never was a Corps. If Marines can be so quick to switch allegiance, then they are no better than the mutineers.

The topic under discussion is the mythical Solarian League Marines, not some pious beliefs about some current Marine Corps. The SLMC may from stem to stern be a group of incompetent grifters who live up to the description "Less dangerous against people with guns".

The may also be intelligent, less than interested in dying for the Mandarins, believe in German the Beweglichkeit doctrine rather than being worthless mindless robots, in which case they lead the mutiny.

They may also observe the current American doctrine that a valid order must make sense, must be possible, and must be legal. attacking Manticore SD to SD fails on 2.

A question is what is average ratio of marines to enlisted crew SLN ship? How many small arms are available and how secure are they?

Conveniently long repairs , sabotage, and , personal going AWOL/deserting will be come a problem long before mutinies occur.

Actually there is at least one historic precident for a "bottom up" (more or less) fleet mutiny.

Britain"s Royal Navy, 1797, the Nore and Spithead mutinies paralized the Channel Fleet with England then at war with France.

I won't go into any detail, those are available through any number of sites but the point is, it happened and perhaps, just maybe if the right cards fall just right a major portion of the SLN could mutiny or declare itself "neutral" rather than risk wholesale death and destruction (suicide) at the hands of the Manty and Haven Navies.

jtg452 wrote:

pnakasone wrote:I think that may be a problem for the SLN as the marines have little confidence or respect for the majority of the navies office core. It may not take the crew that much to convince them to support the ship standing down in neutral space rather then getting destroyed fighting.

Where are you getting that?

The Marines are professionals. Not just professionals, but pretty hardcore pros at that. They don't have to respect the person to respect the position and to follow lawful orders. As professionals, they will do their jobs. So, on shipboard, part of that job is to put down mutiny. Unless they can be shown that the orders are illegal, I think it's going to be very, very hard to convince them to side with mutineers.

I just don't see them disobeying orders as quickly as some here seem to.

cthia wrote: I agree. Indoctrination is indoctrination. Either you have it or you don't. Or there never was a Corps. If Marines can be so quick to switch allegiance, then they are no better than the mutineers.

phillies wrote:The topic under discussion is the mythical Solarian League Marines, not some pious beliefs about some current Marine Corps. The SLMC may from stem to stern be a group of incompetent grifters who live up to the description "Less dangerous against people with guns".

The may also be intelligent, less than interested in dying for the Mandarins, believe in German the Beweglichkeit doctrine rather than being worthless mindless robots, in which case they lead the mutiny.

They may also observe the current American doctrine that a valid order must make sense, must be possible, and must be legal. attacking Manticore SD to SD fails on 2.

Even so, I don't think it's logical that you would sentence the Marines to "guilty" just by association to the planet.

Textev has given us that the Marines are professionals. Which suggests to me that they are indeed the "Few and the Proud." And they remained separate, professionally, from the Navy and its corruption. I always thought that textev only supported the Navy being corrupt. Not the Marines. Come on people, the Navy was segregated into OFS and Battle Fleet because the Navy wasn't big enough for the both of them. Not because it was big enough. The Marines had nothing to do with the Navy, or the corruption, the lethargy of concept, or incompetence, or head-up-arse syndrome. Really think the Mandarins would give the Marines a piece of pie?

It would be just as the Marines had to remind the egos of the Navy when they came avisiting Basilisk Station and ran into the NPA's sergeant, I think he was?

cthia wrote:Even so, I don't think it's logical that you would sentence the Marines to "guilty" just by association to the planet.

Textev has given us that the Marines are professionals. Which suggests to me that they are indeed the "Few and the Proud." And they remained separate, professionally, from the Navy and its corruption. I always thought that textev only supported the Navy being corrupt. Not the Marines. Come on people, the Navy was segregated into OFS and Battle Fleet because the Navy wasn't big enough for the both of them. Not because it was big enough. The Marines had nothing to do with the Navy, or the corruption, the lethargy of concept, or incompetence, or head-up-arse syndrome. Really think the Mandarins would give the Marines a piece of pie?

It would be just as the Marines had to remind the egos of the Navy when they came avisiting Basilisk Station and ran into the NPA's sergeant, I think he was?

It was the RMMC "Major" who was being dismissive of the NPA Captain (who had been the Top Shirt of the Saganami Island Marines, IIRC), not Honor.

cthia wrote:Textev has given us that the Marines are professionals. Which suggests to me that they are indeed the "Few and the Proud." And they remained separate, professionally, from the Navy and its corruption. I always thought that textev only supported the Navy being corrupt. Not the Marines. Come on people, the Navy was segregated into OFS and Battle Fleet because the Navy wasn't big enough for the both of them. Not because it was big enough. The Marines had nothing to do with the Navy, or the corruption, the lethargy of concept, or incompetence, or head-up-arse syndrome. Really think the Mandarins would give the Marines a piece of pie?

I don't think anyone doubts they're professionals, but so are the Navy brass. They probably have fewer opportunities for corruption, e.g. selling ships out of the Reserve Fleet while also taking the money appropriated to maintain them.

in Thunder, that Marine in Naval Intelligence suggested that the Marine brass were more than a little tired of having to deal with problems the Frontier Fleet had let fester. He didn't sound like a paragon of patriotic fervor to me.

[quote="Bill Woods in Thunder, that Marine in Naval Intelligence suggested that the Marine brass were more than a little tired of having to deal with problems the Frontier Fleet had let fester. He didn't sound like a paragon of patriotic fervor to me.[/quote]

He did sound like a guy tired of seeing marines dropped into the crapper through idiotic "intelligence" and/or graft & corruption yet willing to go in anyway. Kinda 'we'll do our job, we just want to be sure we know what the job really is going in.'

WeirdlyWired wrote:He did sound like a guy tired of seeing marines dropped into the crapper through idiotic "intelligence" and/or graft & corruption yet willing to go in anyway. Kinda 'we'll do our job, we just want to be sure we know what the job really is going in.'

That dos not even touch what they feel about the OFS bully boys the Solarian Gendarmerie. One wonders how often there have "friendly fire" indents between the two.