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[SoV Spoiler] Houdini, what's the point??

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Re: [SoV Spoiler] Houdini, what's the point??
Post by WLBjork   » Sat Oct 08, 2016 1:14 am

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WeirdlyWired wrote:
WLBjork wrote:This is the main reason I suspect Houdini will fail to work completely.


Perhaps you are correct. However unless it is a last second, tucked into the epilogue, revelation, don't expect any such revelations to come out in SoV. And there is (according to RFC)one last book after this one and not all ends will be tied off.


I'm not saying I expect it to be fully dealt with.

We do know the most important thing is that the GA, is aware of the existence of the MA and it's goals, which was the reason for the creation of the GA in the first place.

Equally important is that the GA remains in existence whilst waiting for the MA to show their hand. There will be plenty to work in, even just wading through the various layers of the onion.

For that matter, even if there is a smoking gun pointing where the MA is hiding, the public face of the RF will almost certainly preclude action being taken at that time - it may well become a waiting game...for the darkest and most destructive war the galaxy has seen.
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Re: [SoV Spoiler] Houdini, what's the point??
Post by Weird Harold   » Sat Oct 08, 2016 3:35 am

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Theemile wrote:But it is made clear that they are not treated like slaves are elsewhere and don't think of themselves as slaves.


[quote=""Mission of Honor
Chapter Thirty-eight]The remainder of the system population were genetic slaves, but the conditions of their slavery were very unlike those which obtained elsewhere. For one thing, they were treated far better, without the often savage discipline slaves often received elsewhere. In fact, the Darius System was one of the very few places where the Mesan Constitution's official legal protections theoretically intended to protect slaves from gross mistreatment were actually enforced. For another, they had a much higher standard of living. And for yet another, they formed the backbone of a highly trained, highly skilled labor force which had earned the respect of its supervisors.[/quote]

I don't see anything to suggest they don't think of themselves as slaves. They are treated better, but they are still slaves and know they are slaves.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

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Re: [SoV Spoiler] Houdini, what's the point??
Post by munroburton   » Sat Oct 08, 2016 5:31 am

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Weird Harold wrote:I don't see anything to suggest they don't think of themselves as slaves. They are treated better, but they are still slaves and know they are slaves.


Darius seems more like a caste system where everyone, top to bottom, knows and accepts their place.
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Re: [SoV Spoiler] Houdini, what's the point??
Post by Louis R   » Sat Oct 08, 2016 10:42 am

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I'm sure others have had this same thought, but it just occurred to me, at least in this form, to wonder just what Leonard would have thought of classifying people as Alpha, Beta, Gamma. Would he go through the roof, or did he invent it himself while building Manpower's first 'indentured servants'? Did he live long enough to see those servants made into seccies?

Or, to put it another way, how much of what Jack McBryde thought was the Detweiler Vision really was? To what extent was Detweiler simply blind to the logical consequences of his ideology, how much was he indifferent to them, how much did he actually embrace them?

munroburton wrote:
Darius seems more like a caste system where everyone, top to bottom, knows and accepts their place.
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Re: [SoV Spoiler] Houdini, what's the point??
Post by Theemile   » Sat Oct 08, 2016 2:09 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
Theemile wrote:But it is made clear that they are not treated like slaves are elsewhere and don't think of themselves as slaves.


[quote=""Mission of Honor
Chapter Thirty-eight]The remainder of the system population were genetic slaves, but the conditions of their slavery were very unlike those which obtained elsewhere. For one thing, they were treated far better, without the often savage discipline slaves often received elsewhere. In fact, the Darius System was one of the very few places where the Mesan Constitution's official legal protections theoretically intended to protect slaves from gross mistreatment were actually enforced. For another, they had a much higher standard of living. And for yet another, they formed the backbone of a highly trained, highly skilled labor force which had earned the respect of its supervisors.[/quote]

I don't see anything to suggest they don't think of themselves as slaves. They are treated better, but they are still slaves and know they are slaves.[/quote]


SoV has points which counter this, mentioning specifically that they don't know they are slaves.
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RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: [SoV Spoiler] Houdini, what's the point??
Post by Theemile   » Sat Oct 08, 2016 2:30 pm

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Theemile wrote:SoV has points which counter this, mentioning specifically that they don't know they are slaves.


s

p

o

I

l

e

r

s

many of the people from Houdini didn't know where they were going

Chapter Seventy-Five
“Pretty amazing, isn’t it?” Zachariah McBryde asked quietly, standing behind Gail Weiss on the balcony. She was a tall woman, but he was still taller, and he shook his head as he gazed out across the city’s lights across her shoulder. “I always figured there had to be some kind of…I don’t know…an arsenal world, I guess, like Haven’s Bolthole, out there somewhere, but I never imagined this.”


as for the slaves....

What he’d found was a world whose every citizen subscribed enthusiastically to the realization of the Detweiler Plan. More than three quarters of those citizens—well over eighty percent of them, in fact—were clones, produced and decanted with all the expertise Manpower Incorporated had developed over the centuries. The proportion was beginning to drop as the first generations aged and old fashioned natural childbirths expanded, yet for decades to come, vat-grown, cloned children would continue to hugely outnumber those born naturally. Under Mesan law—which wasn’t the same as Dariusan law, to be fair—those clones were the property of whoever had produced them. In that sense, they were genetic slaves at birth just as much as anyone Manpower had ever packaged and sold. But once these “slaves” had been decanted, they’d been raised by a human surrogate parents. They’d been educated and nurtured, not brutalized—treated as valued human beings, not so many animate pieces of property. They’d been encouraged to think for themselves, to value themselves.
...

Of course, there were a few small holes in the average Dariusan’s education. They knew about genetic slavery, for example, but they regarded it as a grim, dark and perverted legacy of the way in which the galaxy at large had demonized Leonard Detweiler and his fellow visionaries. They were taught that Leonard would have rejected the terrible cancer which had grown within the society of Mesa as its members gave up the struggle and accepted—embraced—the outlaw status the rest of the galaxy had forced upon them, and that the Alignment had arisen in large part as a reaction against that institution. The Alignment’s great mission was to reclaim Leonard’s original, glorious vision. To be its defender, its champion—its standard bearer. That vision must be carried to triumph, and if the benighted parochialism of the rest of the galaxy rejected the brightness of its promise, then the people of Darius were prepared for whatever struggle might be required.
...
But at least part of it’s an enormous lie. The thought went through his brain like a bittersweet strain of music. They don’t know the truth about Manpower, about the way the Alignment’s used it for so long. What happens if they ever ask themselves why something like the Alignment, with the resources to colonize Darius—to build all this infrastructure in the first place—was never able to root out genetic slavery on its own homeworld? What happens, once they’re allowed out of Darius—when they storm out of Darius, manning the Alignment’s warships? Do they go right on accepting what they’ve been taught? Or do they start to ask questions? The kinds of questions Jack may have asked himself.


The important piece is that there is a Darian law - which the citizens of Darius know about, and MESAN law, which considers them slaves. And unlike, say, Manticorian law, which doesn't give 2 flipps about what the Mesans say on the topic and considers all humans, humans - with all the rights that confers, Darian Law appears to be under Mesan law; and while the daily laws that Darian citizens use give them rights, in reality, they have none.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: [SoV Spoiler] Houdini, what's the point??
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Sat Oct 08, 2016 3:09 pm

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feyhunde wrote:SoV makes it various obvious both are going on. This is a SoV thread, and we're dealing with stuff that's last chapter, so beware reading this next bit about the Final Flourish.

SPOIILERS



There are multiple stages and goals going on, and since the MA was trying to get everyone ahead of plan, they failed. Many folks were killed on purpose during the early days of Houdini as they weren't wanted in the next stage of the MA as their days of using Mesa are ending. So lots of blood thirsty types as well as those inconvenient to the history the MA wants to have. It's clear the inner onion does not want their real actions to be remembered and puts a sugar coating on everything for folks heading to Darius. But even then, the GA comes before everyone is off. A sizable amount of less essential members of the onion die in the Final Flourish. Millions dead to hide ~10,000 members of the onion not on the cull lists.

END SPOILERS


You're mixing things up. "Final Flourish" was the last of the planned nukes meant to eliminate those who knew too much and to stir up as much trouble as possible so Mesa would self-destruct after their exit.

The bombs you are thinking of didn't have a name.
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Re: [SoV Spoiler] Houdini, what's the point??
Post by Fox2!   » Sat Oct 08, 2016 4:39 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
Theemile wrote:But it is made clear that they are not treated like slaves are elsewhere and don't think of themselves as slaves.


[quote=""Mission of Honor
Chapter Thirty-eight]The remainder of the system population were genetic slaves, but the conditions of their slavery were very unlike those which obtained elsewhere. For one thing, they were treated far better, without the often savage discipline slaves often received elsewhere. In fact, the Darius System was one of the very few places where the Mesan Constitution's official legal protections theoretically intended to protect slaves from gross mistreatment were actually enforced. For another, they had a much higher standard of living. And for yet another, they formed the backbone of a highly trained, highly skilled labor force which had earned the respect of its supervisors.[/quote]

I don't see anything to suggest they don't think of themselves as slaves. They are treated better, but they are still slaves and know they are slaves.[/quote]


They sound more like Azi than slaves.
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Re: [SoV Spoiler] Houdini, what's the point??
Post by Weird Harold   » Sat Oct 08, 2016 11:33 pm

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Fox2! wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:I don't see anything to suggest they don't think of themselves as slaves. They are treated better, but they are still slaves and know they are slaves.


They sound more like Azi than slaves.


"A Rose by any other name..."

There are, indeed, many similarities to Darius's genetic slaves, but whether you call them "Azi" or "Genetic Slaves" they're still slaves and they know they are slaves.

There have been many cultures throughout history where slaves had a lot of influence and freedom of action: most notably the Mamlukes. If you offered any of those slaves their freedom, they would decline and wonder what they had done to be punished so.

Even the spoiler quote above from SoV refers to them as "slaves" and that is their legal status.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: [SoV Spoiler] Houdini, what's the point??
Post by WeirdlyWired   » Sun Oct 09, 2016 4:04 am

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Louis R wrote:These are people who can confirm the existence and provide a good deal of information about policies and procedures of the Alignment. In fact, they're almost certainly deep enough in to have a good idea that there's deeper than they are, probably were sure that their sons were significantly deeper - and certainly _don't_ know what's lurking in those depths. Probably because they tested out as less that certain to embrace the immediate goals and methods of the core, however much they might support the ultimate objective. They're disposable because at this point their only real contribution to the Plan would be keeping Zack happy, and the route chosen for the execution of Houdini dictated that the happiness of evacuees was no longer a consideration. They are slated for disposal because their connections to the core are strong enough that they pose a risk of providing useful information.

And who knows? If Houdini hadn't been short-circuited from the short-circuit version, the Gauls could well have gotten around to tidying them up and records 'corrected' to show that they _were_ caught by that bomb. As it is, I have to wonder just how recently their medical packages were updated.

Only an idiot fights a war on two fronts. Only the idiot son of that idiot fights a thousand wars and border skirmishes at the same time - Emperor Londo II.

The whole purpose of the GA going to mesa to try to find evidence of the MA is to try to get the Solaran League to back down and admit reality. Which, as I recall, is why Black Victor and Zilwicki of the Spaceways went there twice.

After all, only a idiot wants to take on the largest most technically backward navy AND the most advanced one of indeterminate size at the same time. Especially when you can't take the offensive against the latter.
Helas,chou, Je m'en fache.
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