Aren't any of the Gang of Four Married?

This is what happens when you have time to re-read.

In the foundation book, 'Off Armageddon Reef' (OAR), we have this CoGA requirement;

... both the Writ and the Church’s own regulations also required that any churchman who aspired to the ranks of the episcopate must have married. How else could he understand the physical and emotional needs of the wedded believers for whose spiritual well-being he was responsible? (pg 261)

Yet, there is no textev that I can find that gives the marriage status for ANY of the Go4's marriage status! We have ample evidence of Vicar Zhaspahr Clyntahn's lust and assignations in his own quarters, but as for Vicars Rhobair Duchairn, Allayn Magwair, and Zahmsyn Trynair, they appear to be like contemporary Roman Catholic Cardinals, celibate and unmarried!

Yet, much is made of Clyntahn's abuse of the families of "The Circle" members and how Madame Ahnzhelyk / Nynian's organizaion had gone to dangerous lengths to save some of them along with Adorai (and sons), the family of Charis Archbishop Erayk Dynnys. Of course, we also have Vicar Hauwerd Wylsynn, also listed as NEVER marrying.

So, is it a requirement or a 'requirement'?

I wonder if the quote is a bit of a generalization and refers to bishoprics that have flocks, and doesn't apply to beurocratic bishops.




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Imagine Zhasphar Clyntahn with a wife... it blows the mind!

Don

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They may be married, but I assume (because the Vicars of Mother Church are Knights of the Temple Lands, too) that their wifes are "at home" and manage the ... property of the respective families (and "terrorize" their servants on occasion) outside Zion. After all, that was how many of the families of the Circle-members could be saved; they were not in Zion itself at the time Clyntahn made his move.

On the other hand, we know of at least one Vicar - one of the Wilsynns (sp?), if I remember correctly - who wasn't married. So, how did he got to the Vicarate without meeting that regulation?

Eagleeye wrote:They may be married, but I assume (because the Vicars of Mother Church are Knights of the Temple Lands, too) that their wives are "at home" and manage the ... property of the respective families (and "terrorize" their servants on occasion) outside Zion. After all, that was how many of the families of the Circle-members could be saved; they were not in Zion itself at the time Clyntahn made his move.

On the other hand, we know of at least one Vicar - one of the Wilsynns (sp?), if I remember correctly - who wasn't married. So, how did he got to the Vicarate without meeting that regulation?

There several reasonable ideas to consider. Perhaps some of the _senior_ people that we're talking about are widowers. Perhaps there are some distant political marriages of convenience going on as EagleEye suggests. Perhaps there are exceptions to the rule (this certainly seems to be the case for a lot of other rules). Perhaps the wives in question just haven't been important to the story.

In support of this, I offer the following MINOR SPOILER...
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"Mistress Marzho?" Maigwair's tone was equal parts incredulous and disgusted, and it was Duchairn's turn to arch an inquiring eyebrow. "My wife's been one of her clients for the lat ten years."

CanoeSage wrote:In support of this, I offer the following MINOR SPOILER...
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<snip>

ARGH. My Amazon preview doesn't have that tidbit!

The simple explanation is that you don't have to be a bishop or archbishop to be named a Vicar, anymore than you _have_ to be one to become a Cardinal. Or even Pope, for that matter - the strict reading of Canon Law, apparently, is that any male Catholic can be elected to the office, and if he isn't already a bishop he is ordained as part of the installation ceremony. [In practice, of course, it's been the private preserve of the College of Cardinals for at least 15 centuries.]

Problem with that is that there's a passage somewhere that implies - if i read it correctly - that Hauwerd did become a bishop at one point. It may well be that there is a procedure for waiving the requirement in special cases.

In the cases of the Go4, it's most likely that they contracted marriages of convenience with Church families with appropriate connections to support their rises in the hierarchy. Those wives and their relatives would doubtless only cross Clyntahn's and Trynair's minds if they had some immediate political significance. Rhobair, I suspect, is now a widower - we'd have seen something out of the current Rhobair if he had a family Zhaspahr could lay hands on. Magwair? We simply don't know enough about him to speculate on his situation. So far, there hasn't been any reason for the relevant information to be presented.*

*And as I go to post this, I discover that we are about to get some of that info: Magwair does have a wife, and she's in Zion. Wasn't in my views either!

Eagleeye wrote:They may be married, but I assume (because the Vicars of Mother Church are Knights of the Temple Lands, too) that their wifes are "at home" and manage the ... property of the respective families (and "terrorize" their servants on occasion) outside Zion. After all, that was how many of the families of the Circle-members could be saved; they were not in Zion itself at the time Clyntahn made his move.

On the other hand, we know of at least one Vicar - one of the Wilsynns (sp?), if I remember correctly - who wasn't married. So, how did he got to the Vicarate without meeting that regulation?

The episcopate are the regional "governors" of the CoGA. If a Vicar rose in authority outside the episcopate track, like the Church Guard or the Admin/accounting tracks, then that imperative might not apply.

Charybdis wrote:This is what happens when you have time to re-read.

In the foundation book, 'Off Armageddon Reef' (OAR), we have this CoGA requirement;

... both the Writ and the Church’s own regulations also required that any churchman who aspired to the ranks of the episcopate must have married. How else could he understand the physical and emotional needs of the wedded believers for whose spiritual well-being he was responsible? (pg 261)

Yet, there is no textev that I can find that gives the marriage status for ANY of the Go4's marriage status! We have ample evidence of Vicar Zhaspahr Clyntahn's lust and assignations in his own quarters, but as for Vicars Rhobair Duchairn, Allayn Magwair, and Zahmsyn Trynair, they appear to be like contemporary Roman Catholic Cardinals, celibate and unmarried!

Yet, much is made of Clyntahn's abuse of the families of "The Circle" members and how Madame Ahnzhelyk / Nynian's organizaion had gone to dangerous lengths to save some of them along with Adorai (and sons), the family of Charis Archbishop Erayk Dynnys. Of course, we also have Vicar Hauwerd Wylsynn, also listed as NEVER marrying.

So, is it a requirement or a 'requirement'?

CanoeSage wrote:

Eagleeye wrote:They may be married, but I assume (because the Vicars of Mother Church are Knights of the Temple Lands, too) that their wives are "at home" and manage the ... property of the respective families (and "terrorize" their servants on occasion) outside Zion. After all, that was how many of the families of the Circle-members could be saved; they were not in Zion itself at the time Clyntahn made his move.

On the other hand, we know of at least one Vicar - one of the Wilsynns (sp?), if I remember correctly - who wasn't married. So, how did he got to the Vicarate without meeting that regulation?

There several reasonable ideas to consider. Perhaps some of the _senior_ people that we're talking about are widowers. Perhaps there are some distant political marriages of convenience going on as EagleEye suggests. Perhaps there are exceptions to the rule (this certainly seems to be the case for a lot of other rules). Perhaps the wives in question just haven't been important to the story.

In support of this, I offer the following MINOR SPOILER...
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
"Mistress Marzho?" Maigwair's tone was equal parts incredulous and disgusted, and it was Duchairn's turn to arch an inquiring eyebrow. "My wife's been one of her clients for the lat ten years."

A section of the "Inside" that I have not had access to read!

Here I found something that has been hanging fire for lo, these many (Safehold) years and now comes textev a mere month before publication. Still, that is only one of the four, open query remains about the rest and why 'rules' do or do not apply!

Peter, the normal meaning of episcopate is all bishops, but RFC could have redefined the term for safehold.

The pope thing mentioned above is one of the two ways you can get a married Roman Catholic Priest. Legally, since it happened a few times in the past illegally.

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