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[SoV Spoiler] Houdini, what's the point??

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Re: [SoV Spoiler] Houdini, what's the point??
Post by Vince   » Thu Oct 06, 2016 7:46 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:
Ed130 The Vanguard wrote:3) Remove 'undesirable' elements from the Alignment structure.

I disagree. The purge was to get rid of the least valuable ones because they couldn't get them all off, they weren't considered undesirable.

I haven't read Shadows of Victory yet, but:
Cauldron of Ghosts, Chapter 5 wrote:“They’re almost in the zone,” said Kevin Haas.
Janice Marinescu was watching the progress of the commercial flyer on her own screen. On board were George Vickers and two other alpha-line high-ranking members of the Alignment.
The flyer was now coming in for a landing at the airfield just outside the city of Dobzhansky, three hundred kilometers to the southwest of Mendel. From there, Vickers and his companions were supposed to take a shuttle to one of the orbital stations, where they would board the Jessyk Combine vessel that would take them outsystem. They were starting their Houdini evacuation.
Starting . . . and ending. All of them had been carefully evaluated and found wanting in one important respect or another. In the case of Vickers—the only one of the three Janice knew personally—the problem was excessive narcissism and egotism, an unfortunate side effect that tended to crop up in his genetic line.
There was a tried and tested method—tested for at least ten millennia, since humans first began domesticating animals—for dealing with that problem. Cull the unwanted variants in the genetic line.

The final decision had been made by Collin Detweiler two days ago, just before he left himself.
“Okay . . . now,” said Haas.
Marinescu keyed in the command. The nuclear device that had been secreted in the flyer’s cargo bay detonated.
would seem to contradict your point. Italics are the author's, boldface and underlined text is my emphasis.
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History does not repeat itself so much as it echoes.
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Re: [SoV Spoiler] Houdini, what's the point??
Post by WLBjork   » Fri Oct 07, 2016 1:30 am

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Somtaaw wrote:The nuke that may have had at least some targetting plans to include the McBryde family was irrelevant. When you're using nukes with intended kills in the multiple thousands, a dozen here and a dozen there that were meant to be targets and weren't don't matter. If the McBrydes were truly intended to be killed, a few Gauls would have arrived at the house, shot them, and planted an explosive in the house itself.


Ultimately, anyone still left on Mesa, had zero connection to the Alignment, and don't even know it existed. We saw that in the one family dinner between the McBrydes (prior to Jack trying to get out), the two brothers kept a lot of secrets from their family and just plain didn't speak of it. Their families knew they were involved in something for the betterment of Mankind, but not specifically what, nor did they press too hard. Jack's mother questioned why he was feeling down, and he very carefully picked his way through an explanation that ultimately said very little; and only Zack knew he was talking of Simoes. The mother simply nodded, and said something like "well if anyone can help this person, you can". I don't have my copy of ToF to double check the scene.



For the first point - that is assuming that anyone thought through to check the status of the intended targets afterwards. Remember, this was quick, dirty and accelerated over the original plan which would have been neater and tidier. Easy to forget a little something like that. For that matter, there may not be enough agents to exhaustively check the victims list - remember, they are still really operating on a shoe-string in terms of numbers.

Secondly, that's all dependent on what Zack told his family - it's not 100% clear how far the script they were given went. However, if Zack said he was going somewhere, then wound up dead in another location, that's going to raise a yellow flag. If Zack said he was going to be at a conference, then winds up dead in a more mundane location, that's going to be a much redder shade on the flag.

I don't think the Alignment would necessarily make that mistake, but the key is that things are being done hastily, and haste is a very big source of error.

This is the main reason I suspect Houdini will fail to work completely.
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Re: [SoV Spoiler] Houdini, what's the point??
Post by WeirdlyWired   » Fri Oct 07, 2016 3:49 am

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WLBjork wrote:This is the main reason I suspect Houdini will fail to work completely.


Perhaps you are correct. However unless it is a last second, tucked into the epilogue, revelation, don't expect any such revelations to come out in SoV. And there is (according to RFC)one last book after this one and not all ends will be tied off.
Helas,chou, Je m'en fache.
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Re: [SoV Spoiler] Houdini, what's the point??
Post by Louis R   » Fri Oct 07, 2016 1:36 pm

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These bits, from the texev, are, quite simply, incorrect. ToF tells us that the McBryde genome had been "deep inside the onion" for at least 5 generations. As for what Jack's parents knew: "Jack's blue eyes warmed as he looked across the table at her. Christina McBryde was a sculptress and a painter, one whose light sculptures, in particular, commanded high prices not just here on Mesa, but in the Solarian League's art markets, as well. She'd never really wanted him to go into law enforcement, far less into Alignment Security. That was a job she knew someone had to do, but she'd been afraid of what a career in AS might cost her older son's soul along the way. She hadn't stood in his way, especially when all of the LRPB's aptitude tests confirmed how good he'd be at it, but she'd never liked it.

"His father had been more supportive, although he'd had more than a few reservations of his own. He himself was a senior administrator in the Department of Education, and he'd never made any secret of the fact that he'd been both relieved and happy when his and Christine's oldest child, JoAnne, had decided to go into childhood education. Their second daughter—and their youngest child—Arianne had turned out (not surprisingly) to share Zachariah's scientific bent. She was a chemist, and despite her relative youth (she was only forty-nine T-years old) she'd recently become a scientific advisor to the CEO of the Mesa System government. The McBryde family could take solid, quiet pride in its contributions to the Alignment and to its homeworld (which weren't always the same things), yet there was no denying that both of Jack's parents worried about him."

These are people who can confirm the existence and provide a good deal of information about policies and procedures of the Alignment. In fact, they're almost certainly deep enough in to have a good idea that there's deeper than they are, probably were sure that their sons were significantly deeper - and certainly _don't_ know what's lurking in those depths. Probably because they tested out as less that certain to embrace the immediate goals and methods of the core, however much they might support the ultimate objective. They're disposable because at this point their only real contribution to the Plan would be keeping Zack happy, and the route chosen for the execution of Houdini dictated that the happiness of evacuees was no longer a consideration. They are slated for disposal because their connections to the core are strong enough that they pose a risk of providing useful information.

And who knows? If Houdini hadn't been short-circuited from the short-circuit version, the Gauls could well have gotten around to tidying them up and records 'corrected' to show that they _were_ caught by that bomb. As it is, I have to wonder just how recently their medical packages were updated.

Somtaaw wrote:
The McBrydes that were still on planet weren't involved in the actual Alignment though, only the twins were. And they actually don't know their surviving son wasn't at whatever event he was supposed to have been at. All participants in the Houdini portion that involed Zack McBryde, had Gauls with them, and had gone into a form of solitary confinement in the last week or two prior to their actual departure. That solitary also consisted of "absolutely, ZERO contact with families" and prior to that order to cease communication, all Houdini participants were instructed to inform their families they were going on business trips and would be out of touch for a while.


< snip >

The nuke that may have had at least some targetting plans to include the McBryde family was irrelevant. When you're using nukes with intended kills in the multiple thousands, a dozen here and a dozen there that were meant to be targets and weren't don't matter. If the McBrydes were truly intended to be killed, a few Gauls would have arrived at the house, shot them, and planted an explosive in the house itself.


Ultimately, anyone still left on Mesa, had zero connection to the Alignment, and don't even know it existed. We saw that in the one family dinner between the McBrydes (prior to Jack trying to get out), the two brothers kept a lot of secrets from their family and just plain didn't speak of it. Their families knew they were involved in something for the betterment of Mankind, but not specifically what, nor did they press too hard. Jack's mother questioned why he was feeling down, and he very carefully picked his way through an explanation that ultimately said very little; and only Zack knew he was talking of Simoes. The mother simply nodded, and said something like "well if anyone can help this person, you can". I don't have my copy of ToF to double check the scene.
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Re: [SoV Spoiler] Houdini, what's the point??
Post by kzt   » Fri Oct 07, 2016 1:51 pm

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There are many people left who know about the existence of the Alignment and what they think it's objectives are. They just don't know anything actionable.
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Re: [SoV Spoiler] Houdini, what's the point??
Post by feyhunde   » Fri Oct 07, 2016 1:54 pm

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Vince wrote:
I disagree. The purge was to get rid of the least valuable ones because they couldn't get them all off, they weren't considered undesirable.

I haven't read Shadows of Victory yet, but ...would seem to contradict your point. Italics are the author's, boldface and underlined text is my emphasis.


SoV makes it various obvious both are going on. This is a SoV thread, and we're dealing with stuff that's last chapter, so beware reading this next bit about the Final Flourish.

SPOIILERS



There are multiple stages and goals going on, and since the MA was trying to get everyone ahead of plan, they failed. Many folks were killed on purpose during the early days of Houdini as they weren't wanted in the next stage of the MA as their days of using Mesa are ending. So lots of blood thirsty types as well as those inconvenient to the history the MA wants to have. It's clear the inner onion does not want their real actions to be remembered and puts a sugar coating on everything for folks heading to Darius. But even then, the GA comes before everyone is off. A sizable amount of less essential members of the onion die in the Final Flourish. Millions dead to hide ~10,000 members of the onion not on the cull lists.

END SPOILERS
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Re: [SoV Spoiler] Houdini, what's the point??
Post by Theemile   » Fri Oct 07, 2016 4:05 pm

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feyhunde wrote:
SoV makes it various obvious both are going on. This is a SoV thread, and we're dealing with stuff that's last chapter, so beware reading this next bit about the Final Flourish.

SPOIILERS



There are multiple stages and goals going on, and since the MA was trying to get everyone ahead of plan, they failed. Many folks were killed on purpose during the early days of Houdini as they weren't wanted in the next stage of the MA as their days of using Mesa are ending. So lots of blood thirsty types as well as those inconvenient to the history the MA wants to have. It's clear the inner onion does not want their real actions to be remembered and puts a sugar coating on everything for folks heading to Darius. But even then, the GA comes before everyone is off. A sizable amount of less essential members of the onion die in the Final Flourish. Millions dead to hide ~10,000 members of the onion not on the cull lists.

END SPOILERS



To magnify what feyhunde said - this is an onion, and at each layer, the members think they know the whole story. Remove the inner most layer or 2 and knock off the next outer layer or 2, and you have thoussnds or millions of people in layers 5 and 6 who will all claim membership to the cause and have a complete, identical story as to what is really going on. But, while cohesive and correct to the best of their knowledge, is nowhere near the whole truth.

As has been said several times, many people know Albrect and his sons, but only a few know they are Detweilers, and they are (in reality, if not publically ) pulling all the strings on Mesa.
******
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Re: [SoV Spoiler] Houdini, what's the point??
Post by feyhunde   » Fri Oct 07, 2016 8:00 pm

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Theemile wrote:
To magnify what feyhunde said - this is an onion, and at each layer, the members think they know the whole story. Remove the inner most layer or 2 and knock off the next outer layer or 2, and you have thoussnds or millions of people in layers 5 and 6 who will all claim membership to the cause and have a complete, identical story as to what is really going on. But, while cohesive and correct to the best of their knowledge, is nowhere near the whole truth.

As has been said several times, many people know Albrect and his sons, but only a few know they are Detweilers, and they are (in reality, if not publically ) pulling all the strings on Mesa.


And here's the thing, even out in Darius, the onion rule is still active. The People of Darius believe they are an enlightened colony of Augments, and the Detweiler plan is about enlightened transhumanism. To them, the MAN is to defend them from a galaxy which fears them. To them, Mesa was a perversion of Detweiler's work. To them, Genetic Slavery was part of that perversion.

If the Detweilers weren't the only ones with the full picture, I think most members of the onion would join in mob justice against them. From Zach's PoV chapters, its clear the average inner onion member is still being fed a load of BS.
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Re: [SoV Spoiler] Houdini, what's the point??
Post by Weird Harold   » Fri Oct 07, 2016 8:46 pm

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feyhunde wrote:To them, Mesa was a perversion of Detweiler's work. To them, Genetic Slavery was part of that perversion.


Yet a majority of Darius' population is genetic slaves. It wasn't genetic slavery that was a perversion, it was Manpower's application of genetic slavery and Mesa's failure to enforce laws protecting genetic slaves.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: [SoV Spoiler] Houdini, what's the point??
Post by Theemile   » Sat Oct 08, 2016 12:45 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
feyhunde wrote:To them, Mesa was a perversion of Detweiler's work. To them, Genetic Slavery was part of that perversion.


Yet a majority of Darius' population is genetic slaves. It wasn't genetic slavery that was a perversion, it was Manpower's application of genetic slavery and Mesa's failure to enforce laws protecting genetic slaves.

But it is made clear that they are not treated like slaves are elsewhere and don't think of themselves as slaves.

Thry are still 2nd class citizens, but in a carefully crafted culture where they don't get to see that the class above them exists.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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