[Minor spoiler] Why Włocławek is a bad name for a planet

I started catching up on SoV snippets, and a comment made me finally delurk here. Let me repost this comment here:

Redhead wrote:Hello everyone, long-time lurker here, finally decided to post.
I must say that as Polish I'm delighted with this one.
The name of the planet - Włocławek - is just hilarious The real Włocławek is a modest town on Vistula river, some 113 thousand inhabitants, long history (first mentioned in 12th century) but not very special in any other way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C5%82oc%C5%82awek
To imagine a whole planet named after it, and then Siły Zbrojne Włocławka - Włocławek Armed Forces - it is so funny
Oh, and you really don't want to try to pronounce it correctly, trust me, you don't
[...]
I wonder what the town of Włocławek will think of it when they find out...

I want to very strongly endorse Redhead's point here. As a Pole, I am of course delighted to see a planet that seems to have a Polish culture in the story, but I hope there is still time to change the name.

First, yes, I acknowledge that historically, weirder names have been given to various objects, so it is not impossible a planet would have that name. Still, naming a planet after a minor town - unless it is explained in text with a rationale such as "named because the captain of the first colony ship came from that town" etc. - will make most Polish people laugh and be mildly annoyed that "our" contribution to Honorverse is so... backwards, for a lack of a better term.

If you look at the list of planets of Honorverse (http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Planets), their names can be divided into several types: first, mundane - usually first names or common words (Monica, Boniface, Jeremiah, Hope, Forge, Torch, Furnace), second, "cool" (mythical beasts, literary, cultural or historical references - Manticore, Canaan, Cecitiel, Beowulf, Damocles, Everest, Ghatotkacha, Merlin, Ndebele, Rembrand, Osiris, Socrates, Titan, Xbalanque, Zadkiel, etc.) third, references to major landmarks (Debrecen, Dresden, Kilimanjaro, Montana, Nagasaki, New Brazil, New Corsica, New Geneva, New Ghuanzou, Nouveau Dijon, Potsdam, Prague, Toulon, Zanzibar), fourth, tongue-in-cheek names (Darwin's Joke, Smoking Frog) and fifth, well, things I cannot easily identify because they can have multiple possible origins (Chosan, Creswell, Zelda, Zulu). Now, there are also planets named after relatively small settlements (ex. Danville), and I have also considered that some of them may be related to tuckerization, but after the (rather enjoyable, I learned about some cool stuff :>) analysis of the names, it seems to me that as a general rule, planets in Honorverse that are related to modern (IRL) cultures can point to either cool historical/literary/cultural names ("we got a planet named after a mythical figure/beast/god/scientist/philosopher/other major historical figure) or a landmark that is a major town/province/famous mountain/etc.

Poles seem to be stuck with a minor town of no particular significance to Polish history or culture (where most other cultures, if they get a town, get a large and recognizable one), and while again, I do appreciate seeing a Polish name in the book, I can't help feeling a bit sad that we didn't get anything cool. It is almost as if our name was picked from a random generator, with no thought given to its coolness. There are plenty of major, noncontroversial landmarks, some of which have international recognizably (Wisla/Vistula - major river, Tatry - major mountain range, Warsaw/Warszawa - capital, Cracow/Krakow - second capital of Poland, Gniezno - Polish first capital), mythical references (Svetovid, Svarog, Perun, see Witcher games or Wikipedia for more on that), historical (Mieszko - first king of Poland, alternative names for Poland such as Polania or Lechia, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Poland), or figures such as Chopin, Curie, Paderewski, Copernicus) that would be more memorable. Heck, I'd even think that going with Niebieska (blue) or Nowa Ziemia (New Earth) would work better, too. If Włocławek was chosen because of tuckerization, I will add that it makes a perfectly acceptable surname too (might be a tad better as Włocławski, but either will pass), so it does not need to be list from the story.

On a final note, the first and only other time I recall seeing a Polish planet in a work of a non-Polish sci-fi author was in Peter H. Hamiltion space opara, where there was a passing mention of a planet named Pilsudski (a major historical figure that any Polish person would recognize). I still fondly remember that series for this, and again, I am very happy that Honorverse will join that short list - but I'd be much happier if we got a cooler name, rather than a tiny town that will raise eyebrows, make Polish readers laugh and/or assume that the author cares not about Polish culture. Pretty pretty please?

Maybe it's RFCs favourite place in Poland, or his best Polish buddy comes from there. Who knows?

And who cares anyway? Either of those would be good reasons, and for all of us non-Poles the name doesn't matter because we're too busy figuring out how to pronounce it.
Cheers, Johh

Randomiser wrote:Maybe it's RFCs favourite place in Poland, or his best Polish buddy comes from there. Who knows?

Welcome to the forum piotrus. I'd offer you a beer to toast your first post as is customary. But I seem to be out -- as per my non-shortage of suds swilling friends. Raincheck?

I understand that you care. We Americans can get so beside ourselves while inside ourselves. We often forget that there is a world outside of the US. Yet we can't expect all Americans to assimilate those truths if they've never actually been outside of the US. I suspect that the pronunciation and overwhelming aspect of a quite foreign foreign language would get in most every American's way of intelligent conversation when our brain is busy overloading on grasping a name, then its pronunciation. And when it comes to Polish words, most of us don't know where to start and are as lost as an alien on a new planet.

* Having said that, I think you may be selling Włocławek short, no pun intended. Or rather you may be overlooking the fact that Włocławek could be derived from a more recent starting point in the Honorverse itself. Could it have derived its name from a significant town or settlement of significance in the Honorverse? IOW, the etymology might not actually have anything to do with Old Earth. Or, if it does, that by the time of the Diaspora, it may have asserted itself as a quite significant town.

I am not trying to downplay your concern. If it matters to you it matters to me as well. I'm just asking that your thoughts broaden to include wider possibilities and to also not overlook the possibility that anything, even trivial, can put a tiny -- even insignificant -- town on the map. And once on the map, that city can be a basis for further exploration and a deeper inspection of its surrounding towns, cities, peoples and cultures. It has prompted me to go sightseeing in Włocławek already -- by "Googlemobile." Włocławek is on the map now - an Honorverse map. And that's a start. No?

I'd be tickled pink if my town were featured in a book. Even if that was the only significance of the town. Especially if that were the only significance of the town and I was a resident. Because I've found that oftentimes in the smallest and most insignificance of towns, the people are not -- they're more like a breath of fresh air.

Besides, we cannot discount how pleased those citizens of the actual real world counterpart of Włocławek may be.

* Because there is no denying the breathtaking beauty of Włocławek here on Earth.

I expect all the obvious Polish names were taken by colonies from earlier in the Diaspora. Włocławek, being further out (Shell? Verge? I don't remember), probably wasn't settled in the first few waves of emigration. All the "good" Polish names are probably taken by Core worlds.

noblehunter wrote:I expect all the obvious Polish names were taken by colonies from earlier in the Diaspora. Włocławek, being further out (Shell? Verge? I don't remember), probably wasn't settled in the first few waves of emigration. All the "good" Polish names are probably taken by Core worlds.

That would be my guess. New (insert name hear) is probably the most over used name in the Honorverse. I wouldn't be surprised if Montana's original name was New Montana but over the centuries the new was dropped. When I first read the SI series I wondered at why they named the Split system and the planet Kornati. Until I looked them up and found out that Split is a port city on the Adriatic coast and Kornati is the region that Split is part of.

"Smoking Frog" Siyaj K'ak' is not a joke. The name lines up with "Eisenhower" and "Zhukov". He is a famous military leader; he was a commander for (Prince) Spearthrower Owl.

Of course, it helps if you are slightly familiar with the right language.

It might also be the case that at the time the planet was named, the town Włocławek was the largest surviving municipality in Poland. They had some impressive wars futurewards from here.

phillies wrote:"Smoking Frog" Siyaj K'ak' is not a joke. The name lines up with "Eisenhower" and "Zhukov". He is a famous military leader; he was a commander for (Prince) Spearthrower Owl.

(snip)

Actually, "Smoking Frog" was what the name glyph of Siyaj K'ak' was called before it was translated (because of its appearance). Fire is Born is a better translation of his name.

Ha, thanks for showing me I didn't google enough (re: Smoking Frog). Cool. Frankly, before I did some research for this, I never thought much about planet names here, and I hope this thread shows some of us yet another cool aspect of Honorverse

And yes, I already acknowledged there are many possible if unlikely in-game explanation for a planet's name. No name is, frankly, impossible.

That's why I pointed to the list of existing names and noted that compared to most other nations (Americans, French, German, Czech, Hungarian, Japanese, and a dozen others I could identify) the first Polish name is Honorverse is, IMHO, uninspiring (pronunciation aside, but even here there are places like Szczebrzeszyn...). Again, comparatively. Am I happy Poles finally got their name? Sure I am. I am just saying that when other Polish fans of the series make the logical comparison - Czechs gets Prague, Brits get Glasgow, French Dijin, German Postdam, Japanese Nagasaki, etc. all of which are major towns, some may be a bit disappointed. Those other names give one an immediate association with another country. Wloclawek, let's face it - no non-Pole will get it without googling. To what degree MWW cares about disappointing or appeasing any Polish audience, I am not sure - I am just trying to say that IMHO (and in that of the other Polish poster I cited) the name is, well, the original poster called it hilarious, and maybe that is what was intended. But again, for some who compare it to others, it may be a tad disappointing. Hopefully most Polish readers will just be happy with the first Polish name in Honorverse, but why not make them more safely happy with a cooler*, more recognizable name?

*cooler for anyone who is not from Wloclawek, of course

I'm confident that we all understand what you're saying. This is indeed a place where a little tiny infodump might be useful, although I must say that any place where Copernicus attended school isn't precisely insignificant.

piotrus wrote:Ha, thanks for showing me I didn't google enough (re: Smoking Frog). Cool. Frankly, before I did some research for this, I never thought much about planet names here, and I hope this thread shows some of us yet another cool aspect of Honorverse

And yes, I already acknowledged there are many possible if unlikely in-game explanation for a planet's name. No name is, frankly, impossible.

That's why I pointed to the list of existing names and noted that compared to most other nations (Americans, French, German, Czech, Hungarian, Japanese, and a dozen others I could identify) the first Polish name is Honorverse is, IMHO, uninspiring (pronunciation aside, but even here there are places like Szczebrzeszyn...). Again, comparatively. Am I happy Poles finally got their name? Sure I am. I am just saying that when other Polish fans of the series make the logical comparison - Czechs gets Prague, Brits get Glasgow, French Dijin, German Postdam, Japanese Nagasaki, etc. all of which are major towns, some may be a bit disappointed. Those other names give one an immediate association with another country. Wloclawek, let's face it - no non-Pole will get it without googling. To what degree MWW cares about disappointing or appeasing any Polish audience, I am not sure - I am just trying to say that IMHO (and in that of the other Polish poster I cited) the name is, well, the original poster called it hilarious, and maybe that is what was intended. But again, for some who compare it to others, it may be a tad disappointing. Hopefully most Polish readers will just be happy with the first Polish name in Honorverse, but why not make them more safely happy with a cooler*, more recognizable name?

*cooler for anyone who is not from Wloclawek, of course