[SoV Spoiler] Houdini, what's the point??

Weird Harold wrote:
There is a substantial difference between and "off world base" and an "off world organization." There is a good bit of evidence that the MAlign had a large, well-coordinated organization outside of Mesa, but I don't seen a lot of evidence that they have anything but a secret "Bolthole" style R&D establishment even before Houdini.

Houdini was carefully arranged to send no more than a half-dozen, or so, inner onion-core members on any one ship and every contingent took a different route (with several ship changes) to (presumably) Darius. We don't actually have any hard evidence that everyone evacuated under Houdini went to Darius, that is just a forum assumption. To even a detailed analysis of the data available on Mesa should show "Rats deserting a sinking ship" and scattering to the "six corners of the galaxy."

The lack of spider-drive and/or streak drive ships in Mesa orbit points to a secret shipyard complex somewhere else. It does NOT point to an entire planet of MAlign star lines.

There's several threads around here that will lead eventually to Darius. It's too big and the MA has been too active to hide everything.

First, there is a clear bolt hole, and the GA cannot assume the bolthole is gone. Those spider drive ships required too much effort and too much R&D to test in Mesa. The GA must look.

Second, the Final Flourish of the MA was too conspicuous. Had the Seccy civil war gone large during the break up of the SL, allowing for nukes and KEWs to be lobbed about, the Final Flourish might of worked. The MA started late in evacuating their personal, and got real blood thirsty. The people doing key parts of it weren't always in the onion or even in the MA. They may have been only moving part A to place B, but not everyone involved will be dead. Too much use of Manpower and other Mesan corps. The survivors of the Mesan police forces will include at least a few people who will have questions. And data will exist on non MA computers (or even potential on MA computers with forgotten back ups, as bombs do fail).

The data they will find, or interviews they will find will include stuff like ship captains for manpower/jessyk who had extra passengers. Or ships that went missing after runs to certain depots. Maybe all those slave ships used for part of Houdini blew up a day after dropping off their passengers. But some of those crews will have left messages to family/friends that the MA didn't destroy. Leads will point at where those ships went. The GA will want to track this down simply for trying to find the MA bolt hole. I doubt the MA blew up all those depots after using them. Meaning folks like their traffic controllers will remember those ships and their transactions.

Eventually they will reach dead ends, but it will give them a good idea on where the bolt hole is for the MA. Further they'll be tracking leads from Technodyne. Yildun, and the Yildun wormhole must be targets on the Lacoon list. Technodyne may be part of the MA, but getting rid of every transfer order for parts and equipment is going to be crazy. Eventually the MA's transfer points will be found. Additionally, Lacoon means hitting at least one other MA/RF nation, Visgoth.

Combine this with the fact the Mesan invasion fleet includes Havenite forces, ones senior enough to include people who know where the actual bolthole is and how its hidden. Understanding how the traffic flow hides Bolthole helps find Darius, as its going to be the same sort of thinking.

feyhunde wrote: Combine this with the fact the Mesan invasion fleet includes Havenite forces, ones senior enough to include people who know where the actual bolthole is and how its hidden. Understanding how the traffic flow hides Bolthole helps find Darius, as its going to be the same sort of thinking.

I take it this is a spoiler? Having not read the E-arc, I was assuming only Admiral Gold Peak's forces would be involved. Can't wait to see how it plays out. Hopefully I will live that long.

Not sure Technodyne of Tilden, a Solaran League Defence Contractor is actually part of the MA. Yes it was/is a willing participant in tech transfer around the Haven-Manticore wars, and it is always looking to recoup the R&D investment of those big a$$ed System defense pods and missiles. Not sure it will jump to the MA.

feyhunde wrote:There's several threads around here that will lead eventually to Darius. It's too big and the MA has been too active to hide everything.

First, there is a clear bolt hole, and the GA cannot assume the bolthole is gone. Those spider drive ships required too much effort and too much R&D to test in Mesa. The GA must look.

I'm glad to see someone sees my point.

The examination of Mesa will clearly show the tech they know about didn't come from there. The nanotech might simply be destroyed but the shipyards aren't. Therefore they have a Bolthole and if it's not smashed the MAlign will be back. All the rest makes it even worse for hiding but a perfectly stealthy pullout would still leave the smoking gun.

Loren Pechtel wrote:I don't get it. What in the world does the Alignment think it's going to accomplish with Houdini?

1) Prevent anyone with knowledge of the Alignment from falling into anyone else's hands either though fabricating their deaths or outright killing them.

2) Remove all physical traces of the Alignment from the planet.

3) Remove 'undesirable' elements from the Alignment structure.

4) Ensure that the remaining Mesa catspaws are so damaged and disorganized that anyone looking into them would conclude that they were merely corrupt pieces of scum and not implements in a massive conspiracy.

In the end the Houdini we saw completed 3 out of four objectives completely, not bad for something that was by Alignment standards a seat-of-the-pants rush job.

Now lets go over the main points:

Sections 1, 2 and 3 were a complete success and the first two were the driving force behind the Operation. Other posters have stated that the Alignment wasn't meant to come out until Phase III and as 'saviours of humanity' rather than what has happened. This made the first two objectives a top priority as far as the Alignment members who know exactly where Darius is. Completely keeping the existence of Darius a secret went up in smoke the moment the Alignment was outed as the ones behind the Yawata Strike, the Alliance would be morons not to consider the existence of a Blothole where the ships that delivered the strike was made.

Objective 4 was a partial success but ultimately a win for the Alignment. What you seem to forget is that the Solarian League doesn't think that the Alignment exists. Having a bunch of Measans jump onto their warships and disappear right as Haven, Manticore and Beowulf start screaming about a massive conspiracy would raise a few eyebrows and make folks think 'perhaps they are on to something'.

Yes Houdini was a rush job, yes it could have been done better but in the end it did its job. It removed key personnel in a way that kept those who didn't know or want to know of the Alignments existence in the dark and muddied the waters enough that the occupation of Mesa will not provide enough hard evidence of it existing either.

Not bad for a rush job.

Ed130 The Vanguard wrote:

Loren Pechtel wrote:I don't get it. What in the world does the Alignment think it's going to accomplish with Houdini?

1) Prevent anyone with knowledge of the Alignment from falling into anyone else's hands either though fabricating their deaths or outright killing them.

2) Remove all physical traces of the Alignment from the planet.

3) Remove 'undesirable' elements from the Alignment structure.

4) Ensure that the remaining Mesa catspaws are so damaged and disorganized that anyone looking into them would conclude that they were merely corrupt pieces of scum and not implements in a massive conspiracy.

In the end the Houdini we saw completed 3 out of four objectives completely, not bad for something that was by Alignment standards a seat-of-the-pants rush job.

Now lets go over the main points:

Sections 1, 2 and 3 were a complete success and the first two were the driving force behind the Operation. Other posters have stated that the Alignment wasn't meant to come out until Phase III and as 'saviours of humanity' rather than what has happened. This made the first two objectives a top priority as far as the Alignment members who know exactly where Darius is. Completely keeping the existence of Darius a secret went up in smoke the moment the Alignment was outed as the ones behind the Yawata Strike, the Alliance would be morons not to consider the existence of a Blothole where the ships that delivered the strike was made.

Objective 4 was a partial success but ultimately a win for the Alignment. What you seem to forget is that the Solarian League doesn't think that the Alignment exists. Having a bunch of Measans jump onto their warships and disappear right as Haven, Manticore and Beowulf start screaming about a massive conspiracy would raise a few eyebrows and make folks think 'perhaps they are on to something'.

Yes Houdini was a rush job, yes it could have been done better but in the end it did its job. It removed key personnel in a way that kept those who didn't know or want to know of the Alignments existence in the dark and muddied the waters enough that the occupation of Mesa will not provide enough hard evidence of it existing either.

Not bad for a rush job.

Last I knew (not acquired SoV yet) 1 & 2 were not quite perfectly complete.

The McBrydes didn't go shopping when they usually did, and so weren't caught up in the bombing that looked designed to take them out.

Whilst they don't have any direct involvement with Houdini or (as far as has been revealed) the MA, they will be aware that their remaining son wasn't present at whatever event supposedly killed him off.

Furthermore, they may not be the only such survivors.

This will weaken Houdini further.

WLBjork wrote:

Ed130 The Vanguard wrote:
1) Prevent anyone with knowledge of the Alignment from falling into anyone else's hands either though fabricating their deaths or outright killing them.

2) Remove all physical traces of the Alignment from the planet.

3) Remove 'undesirable' elements from the Alignment structure.

4) Ensure that the remaining Mesa catspaws are so damaged and disorganized that anyone looking into them would conclude that they were merely corrupt pieces of scum and not implements in a massive conspiracy.

In the end the Houdini we saw completed 3 out of four objectives completely, not bad for something that was by Alignment standards a seat-of-the-pants rush job.

Now lets go over the main points:

Sections 1, 2 and 3 were a complete success and the first two were the driving force behind the Operation. Other posters have stated that the Alignment wasn't meant to come out until Phase III and as 'saviours of humanity' rather than what has happened. This made the first two objectives a top priority as far as the Alignment members who know exactly where Darius is. Completely keeping the existence of Darius a secret went up in smoke the moment the Alignment was outed as the ones behind the Yawata Strike, the Alliance would be morons not to consider the existence of a Blothole where the ships that delivered the strike was made.

Objective 4 was a partial success but ultimately a win for the Alignment. What you seem to forget is that the Solarian League doesn't think that the Alignment exists. Having a bunch of Measans jump onto their warships and disappear right as Haven, Manticore and Beowulf start screaming about a massive conspiracy would raise a few eyebrows and make folks think 'perhaps they are on to something'.

Yes Houdini was a rush job, yes it could have been done better but in the end it did its job. It removed key personnel in a way that kept those who didn't know or want to know of the Alignments existence in the dark and muddied the waters enough that the occupation of Mesa will not provide enough hard evidence of it existing either.

Not bad for a rush job.

Last I knew (not acquired SoV yet) 1 & 2 were not quite perfectly complete.

The McBrydes didn't go shopping when they usually did, and so weren't caught up in the bombing that looked designed to take them out.

Whilst they don't have any direct involvement with Houdini or (as far as has been revealed) the MA, they will be aware that their remaining son wasn't present at whatever event supposedly killed him off.

Furthermore, they may not be the only such survivors.

This will weaken Houdini further.

The McBrydes that were still on planet weren't involved in the actual Alignment though, only the twins were. And they actually don't know their surviving son wasn't at whatever event he was supposed to have been at. All participants in the Houdini portion that involed Zack McBryde, had Gauls with them, and had gone into a form of solitary confinement in the last week or two prior to their actual departure. That solitary also consisted of "absolutely, ZERO contact with families" and prior to that order to cease communication, all Houdini participants were instructed to inform their families they were going on business trips and would be out of touch for a while.


Then nukes started going off, and the husband of Zack McBryde's boss (Anastasia Chernevsky), actually happened to BE at the conference she was supposed to have been at, and was killed by the nuke used to 'cover' her disappearance. Since she was Zack's boss, one could easily assume Zack would have been there, but wasn't on the notable guest list because she's his boss, but was there to present something or another.

The nuke that may have had at least some targetting plans to include the McBryde family was irrelevant. When you're using nukes with intended kills in the multiple thousands, a dozen here and a dozen there that were meant to be targets and weren't don't matter. If the McBrydes were truly intended to be killed, a few Gauls would have arrived at the house, shot them, and planted an explosive in the house itself.


Ultimately, anyone still left on Mesa, had zero connection to the Alignment, and don't even know it existed. We saw that in the one family dinner between the McBrydes (prior to Jack trying to get out), the two brothers kept a lot of secrets from their family and just plain didn't speak of it. Their families knew they were involved in something for the betterment of Mankind, but not specifically what, nor did they press too hard. Jack's mother questioned why he was feeling down, and he very carefully picked his way through an explanation that ultimately said very little; and only Zack knew he was talking of Simoes. The mother simply nodded, and said something like "well if anyone can help this person, you can". I don't have my copy of ToF to double check the scene.

Just an observation. The real life Houdini never wanted to disappear without leaving nary a trace of him being there. He only wanted to show that he could disappear without anyone figuring out how, or where to.

WeirdlyWired wrote:I take it this is a spoiler? Having not read the E-arc, I was assuming only Admiral Gold Peak's forces would be involved. Can't wait to see how it plays out. Hopefully I will live that long.

Not sure Technodyne of Tilden, a Solaran League Defence Contractor is actually part of the MA. Yes it was/is a willing participant in tech transfer around the Haven-Manticore wars, and it is always looking to recoup the R&D investment of those big a$$ed System defense pods and missiles. Not sure it will jump to the MA.

Yes, this is a SoV spoiler thread. Also Technodyne is in Yilden, which is a Wormhole termanius. So it's a valid target. Since they are a pod maker known to the GA, and involved in MA related activities, they will be a target with high priority. In fact, I'd say taking Yildun should be one of the biggest offensive priorities for the GA.

Ed130 The Vanguard wrote:

Loren Pechtel wrote:I don't get it. What in the world does the Alignment think it's going to accomplish with Houdini?

1) Prevent anyone with knowledge of the Alignment from falling into anyone else's hands either though fabricating their deaths or outright killing them.

Simply shipping them out does a better job than what they did.

2) Remove all physical traces of the Alignment from the planet.

And my point is that this inherently fails because there should be traces. They initiated Houdini in response to GA allegations that involved various bits of technology. If the GA doesn't find that tech they know it must be elsewhere.

3) Remove 'undesirable' elements from the Alignment structure.

I disagree. The purge was to get rid of the least valuable ones because they couldn't get them all off, they weren't considered undesirable.

4) Ensure that the remaining Mesa catspaws are so damaged and disorganized that anyone looking into them would conclude that they were merely corrupt pieces of scum and not implements in a massive conspiracy.

Scum would not have pulled Oyster Bay.


Without Oyster Bay they could have pulled it off--but they wouldn't have had a reason to pull it off. Once the political climate is such that Houdini was needed I don't believe it could be successful.

feyhunde wrote: Technodyne may be part of the MA, ... (Oct.post)
Yes, this is a SoV spoiler thread. Also Technodyne is in Yilden, which is a Wormhole termanius. So it's a valid target. Since they are a pod maker known to the GA, and involved in MA related activities, they will be a target with high priority. In fact, I'd say taking Yildun should be one of the biggest offensive priorities for the GA.

Yes it is a definite commerce raiding target. In your earlier post "...Technodyne may be part of the MA..." I was just mentioning that despite supplying missiles to the State Sec mercenaries that attacked Torch, and supplying missiles to Filareta, it has nothing to do with building those spider drive missiles; is not an active part of the onion, th MA or even the RF. ...Unless, of course, there is textev within SoV. In which case, never mind.

Heck, storming into that terminus and desrtoying Technodyne's production facilities would make a spectacular space battle.