"Obsolete SDs" Waste not...

Weird Harold wrote:

crewdude48 wrote:I've said it before, and I will say it again. When you propose a use for the SLN SD's you need to answer why it is better to use them than it would be to use
A) the mothballed Manticoran tube wallers,
B) the captured and returned RHN wallers,
C) the almost complete or recently completed RHN wallers,
D) new build RHN ships,
E) new build warships from the Andies, Beowulf, or any of their other allies,
F) commandeered/purchased used civilian ships, or
G) new build civilian ships purchased from allies.

I can't see anything aside from stripping and scrapping where the SLN ships would fit that criteria.

I'd add:

E1) Surplus warships from Andermani, Beowulf, Erewhon, or other un-named sources.

E2) New Build warships from Erewhon or other un-named sources not part of the Grand Alliance.

H) The use also cannot use a build slip or repair ship to transform the ships, as all the build slips currently are either destroyed, being used to rebuild the Manty stations, building more capable, state of the art craft, or maintaining the fleet.

The most here wrote about the technical or the logistic side of the Problem with the captured solarian SD´s. I repeat my post from another Topic to Show another Problem.

Another Problem is the law. If you declare the solarian to pirates you can take their ships. If you are in war with the solarian league, you can take the ships.

But manticore is between two chairs. The Aggression acts of the solarian league would be enough to declare war to the league, but manticore don´t want a war.

On the other side, manticore give the solarian spacers the Status of prisioner of war. Normaly the could treat them as pirates, that means shoot every spacer a bullet in thead, but manticore doesn´t do that.

So, in the end, manticore can get diplomatic Trouble if they use the ships without the permission of the law.

Maldorian wrote:The most here wrote about the technical or the logistic side of the Problem with the captured solarian SD´s. I repeat my post from another Topic to Show another Problem.

Another Problem is the law. If you declare the solarian to pirates you can take their ships. If you are in war with the solarian league, you can take the ships.

But manticore is between two chairs. The Aggression acts of the solarian league would be enough to declare war to the league, but manticore don´t want a war.

On the other side, manticore give the solarian spacers the Status of prisioner of war. Normaly the could treat them as pirates, that means shoot every spacer a bullet in thead, but manticore doesn´t do that.

So, in the end, manticore can get diplomatic Trouble if they use the ships without the permission of the law.

Actually the text seems reasonably clear that Elizabeth did send a formal declaration of war to the League government after the end of the Battle of Manticore 2 (aka Raging Justice).
She'd threatened that an official state of war would exist if Fileretta cross the hyper limit and it seems from things scattered here and there in the text that she followed through on that.

So Manticore is unlikely to get in diplomatic trouble if they dispose of those ships. (And trouble from who? Who would have been unreasonable enough to begrudge the disposition of ships captured following combat precipitated by an invasion of the defender's sovereign territory? There aren't any powerful neutral 3rd parties you need to convince -- and I doubt anybody willing to break away from the League would care about the legal status of those ships)



The bigger concern (I would think), for the people taking possession, is whether the League is going to care about the legal niceties or whether they're going to want to try and make an example out of anyone willing to buy or accept captured League ships.

Maldorian wrote:The most here wrote about the technical or the logistic side of the Problem with the captured solarian SD´s. I repeat my post from another Topic to Show another Problem.

Another Problem is the law. If you declare the solarian to pirates you can take their ships. If you are in war with the solarian league, you can take the ships.

But manticore is between two chairs. The Aggression acts of the solarian league would be enough to declare war to the league, but manticore don´t want a war.

On the other side, manticore give the solarian spacers the Status of prisioner of war. Normaly the could treat them as pirates, that means shoot every spacer a bullet in thead, but manticore doesn´t do that.

So, in the end, manticore can get diplomatic Trouble if they use the ships without the permission of the law.

The difficulties aren't limited to two parties. Haven and Grayson both may have rights to a share of the captured assets.

For a real world example of diplomatic difficulties a large fleet presents when surrendered to an alliance of sovereign nations, see what was happening with the German fleet after WW1 before its scuttling.

Even if all three main GA members do not want to use the ships at all, they have to at least agree on a means of disposal. If dismantled for scrap, who does the scrapping and how is the scrap money to be divided? Given the scope of the GA's other problems, this is definitely a back-burner issue, so these ships will likely sit in a harmless, out of the way orbit for years if not decades.

munroburton wrote:For a real world example of diplomatic difficulties a large fleet presents when surrendered to an alliance of sovereign nations, see what was happening with the German fleet after WW1 before its scuttling.

Even if all three main GA members do not want to use the ships at all, they have to at least agree on a means of disposal. If dismantled for scrap, who does the scrapping and how is the scrap money to be divided? Given the scope of the GA's other problems, this is definitely a back-burner issue, so these ships will likely sit in a harmless, out of the way orbit for years if not decades.

While this does not apply to those ships captured at spindle, the rest of the objections do. It will take longer to refit them to standards compatible with the rest of the fleet than to build new. I would expect that stripping the SLN ships of perishables, small arms and light craft is proceeding apace.

I see the use of a handful of ships as destructive test beds, shooting galleries, and SAR training facilities. Doubt this would even consume ten ships.

The E wrote:
If you are not completely stupid, yes. Consider the following points:
1. Unlike the Solarian League or Haven, the RF does not present a clear and present danger. It might become dangerous, but the same is true of any number of SL successor states with a critical mass of industry.

You might have a point if the RF is an unsuspecting accomplice. Your point is lost when we consider that if evidence is discovered through any means that suggests the whole war with the League, the League's collapse was orchestrated in order to allow the RF to succeed the League. The point is that they haven't done anything overt but they are central to the MA's plan. Destroy the RF or at least a large part of it and the MA will have to start from Scratch.

Any number of successor nations might come out, but how many of them would be a part of the largest war in human history? How many could be implicated in millions or billions of deaths because of their part in a plan?

The E wrote:2. The danger the RF represents is more on a philosophical level than anything else.

Nothing philosophical about it. If it becomes evident that the MA has instigated this war in order to replace the League with the RF, what reaction do you expect from the GA? Sit and wait to see what the MA actually plans to do with the RF?

The E wrote:3. Taking out the RF before it has done anything to harm the GA, just based on the assumption/accusation that because the Alignment is involved in it, it must be up to no good, creates an incentive for other successor states to start working on strong defences against the GA.

I highly doubt that the hundreds of core and shell systems will be that concerned with the problems of a few systems. As long as the GA dots their i's and crosses their t's and doesn't go overboard there should not be a problem. The league is collapsing, those systems will be more worried about neighbours with ill intentions or even pirates rather than the GA's actions against a small % of core/shell systems.

The E wrote:4. Furthermore, it will create a climate where the GA is seen not as a liberator from the stagnation of the League, but as a more unhinged, more oppressive version of it; this will make the security situation a lot more volatile than it has to be.

Do you actually think that many of those systems will see the GA as liberators? Most of the core and shell world's have been focusing almost exclusively on internal matters, the SLN has provided a security umbrella that has protected the League and it's members from reality.

For the first time in centuries if not ever many of those systems will be forced to build fleet's of their own. Most will not be pleased with the added burden of a fleet no matter how necessary nor will they be pleased with the nation that brought down the all powerful SLN. They were not oppressed by the system, most if not all of the core and many of the shell systems were part of the system not oppressed by it.

The E wrote:The RF isn't that large (it includes eleven star nations right now). If it was a large bloc like you suggest, I would agree with you, but a small collection like what it actually is at present is not a threat yet.

But my suggestion is that once enough evidence is present to eliminate the threat when there are 11 systems with their fleet's rather than wait 20 or 30 years when there might be a hundred or more highly industrialized systems with equal technology and overwhelming numerical superiority.

The E wrote:Also, consider this: The core worlds, as a group, are very likely to quickly form alliances after the fall of the League. These are nations that have been allied to each other for centuries; there aren't going to be that many instances of huge rifts between two or more neighbouring systems.

Unlikely, we know that there are area's that the SLN has to maintain a presence in order to keep League members from fighting each other, in what 2,000 systems I would think that there would be quite a few feud's going on.

Even if we don't account for feud's, the simple fact that there would be so many different reactions to the collapse of the League that it should keep the successor states busy for a long time. Some will try to build empires of their own, others will build defence alliances while others will try to go alone. As long as the GA does not indiscriminately go after anyone remotely suspected of being part of the RF it shouldn't shake them up too much.

Joat42 wrote:I think that using the SD's as training platforms are a complete waste of money and resources.

Anyone saying that the tech is essentially the same although the SD's have older ditto are mostly wrong.

The problem with using obsolete tech to train people is that when they get their hands on new tech they have to unlearn a lot which is difficult. For someone that has been retrained continuously with each incremental tech upgrade this isn't a problem, but there is no one in the GA that has that kind of experience with Solly tech.

A comparison would be like knowing how to service a first generation transistor radio compared to the latest generation digital one. The operating principles are the same but the implementation is completely different.

And as people has repeatedly said - Manticore has a lot of newer ships mothballed that can be used instead of the crappy Solly SD's, and the current tech is an incremental upgrade from what is in those ships which makes retraining much simpler.

The SD's are essentially scrap that needs to be recycled, deal with it.

So the RMN has reinvented everything about their warships? Every aspect of the ship is so foreign that it would be incompatible with the SLN ships?

Any number of the non-weapon or sensor portions of the ship would be equal technology, so you can tech people to operate and repair those ships and it would be relevant to those that the GA produces. Once again, we aren't talking about comparing a WW1 DD with a modern DD, we are talking about comparing say two modern DD's one with modern state of the art weapons while the other with WW1 level weapons. Just because one has obsolete weapons doesn't mean everything about that vessel is obsolete.

If you are right, it would be a moot point since the RMN wont have people capable of operating those ships anyway so they would have to be disposed of where they were captured.

Vince wrote:
If even the SLN--the navy with the most of these units (both in active status and in the reserve), as well as the navy that understands them the best and is best equipped with the knowledge, manpower, materials and equipment to refit them--is not willing to modernize them (considered a waste of money) and considers them unfit for use as they currently exist (both active and reserve units) in the new combat environment, they might just be right.

I realize that the SLN is considered primarily as a collection of idiots by most of the characters in the Honorverse in a position to properly judge it, but we (the readers) have seen a few individuals with functional brains, albeit mostly in lower level positions--which doesn't apply to Kingsford, he seems to be one of the very few exceptions to that rule by both possessing a functional brain (and willing to actually use it, when provided with information that doesn't fit into the preconceived notions of the SLN status quo) as well as being in a position to actually implement decisions (at the top of the SLN ranks).

Because they are looking at them as weapons for war against the GA. For war with other enemies they are good weapons.

If you are using musket's for war against the modern US army they are useless but if you were to use those musket's against someone armed with muskets or say nothing at all they are very capable weapons. Those SD's would be useful for someone who plans on forging their own little pocket empire as long as they don't cross the GA.

crewdude48 wrote:I've said it before, and I will say it again. When you propose a use for the SLN SD's you need to answer why it is better to use them than it would be to use
A) the mothballed Manticoran tube wallers,

If they are available and can hold a decent amount of candidates and don't give away too many secrets that be great. If you have 1000 instructors and only space for 500 candidates then that is not effective use of limited manpower.

crewdude48 wrote:B) the captured and returned RHN wallers,

You answered your own question, they were returned. It be bad for the longevity of the GA to take back those captured RHN wallers and donate them for training purposes. What's more they might contain tech you wont want in the hands of just anyone.

crewdude48 wrote:C) the almost complete or recently completed RHN wallers,

Same problem, those ships have technology that is too advanced. You don't want to give out your secret weapon to just anyone. Plus those SD(P)'s might be needed soon enough.

crewdude48 wrote:E) new build warships from the Andies, Beowulf, or any of their other allies,

There wont be enough of them or they are too advanced. Until someone proves they can 1) be trusted and 2) wont use those ships for conquest/oppression then giving them war ships on par with the GA is a bad idea.

crewdude48 wrote:F) commandeered/purchased used civilian ships, or
G) new build civilian ships purchased from allies.

What is the difference between using civilian ships and captured ships? One has facilities for 6,000 people and is a warship, the other has facilities for a few hundred and is a civilian ship. There may be a use for them but I think the SLN ships are better.

Weird Harold wrote:
I'd add:

E1) Surplus warships from Andermani, Beowulf, Erewhon, or other un-named sources.

E2) New Build warships from Erewhon or other un-named sources not part of the Grand Alliance.

And what happens when those ships are used by one of their new owners to conquer their neighbours? Or worse sell their tech to everyone? Over night the GA's one advantage is gone... and they are responsible for cleaning up the mess which would be all that much harder.