Multi-generational bonding

George J. Smith wrote:IIRC, from Worlds of Honor 6 (Beginnings) in the short story Beauty and the Beast, the link between Alison & Alfred was akin to bonding, and in the Best Laid Plans story before he bonded with Honor Nimitz mentioned that he may have bonded with Alfred if Alfred had not "bonded" with Alison.

It seems as though changes have manifested in the thought processes of the Harrington clan.

That seems to have been a one-off bond experience thing however. As we originally saw Alfred and Alison Harrington (HotQ I believe), they were a regular couple who enjoyed teasing their daughter just a little, but still regular parents without any ESP/bond thing.

Then the Beauty and the Beast story showed that Alfred could unerringly point towards her, and later tracks her down to rescue her. She was also aware of him which is two-way treecat bond there, not simply one-way Harrington modified genes acting similar to treecats only due to repeated long-endurance association.

Later stories, written after BatB, again present the Harrington family as the same as any others. Thrust a little more into the spotlight due to Honor's escapades, but still a generic hetero-couple without even the slightest ESP. Now I'll grant that really we haven't needed to see any of that, or that perhaps RFC hadn't quite decided yet if that was how he wanted to explain Honor's particular acute sensitivity.


The fullout treecat level bond during the BatB, is very interesting though. That was an all-up bond, started by and maintained by a human, to a human. And I think it was mentioned how they were almost inseparable after the rescue by Alison's brother/twin which is very reminiscent of the often mentioned "new bonds, the bondee doesn't want to put the cat down, ever. Physical contact is very important to the bond, etc etc".

There also appeared to be at least a short-term, uhmm transfer is the best word I suppose, of Alfred's Marine training to Alison. She adapted extremely quickly for the holding action they fought for someone who, right up until the very latest books, didn't think she needed a Grayson Armsman full-time because "who'd want to hurt her?" That's indicative of someone who hasn't taken any form of self-defense course whether melee or sidearm. Which further extrapolation, and the story having taken place on decadent, licentious Beowulf, means she wouldn't have had even basic sidearm training while a medical doctor either.

cthia wrote:

WLBjork wrote:Problem there is that Alfred wasn't adopted, nor was Alison.

I'm also pretty sure that whilst Harringtons have had the highest proportion of adoptions, it's not quite a once-per-generation thing - but it can't be far off either (as the Wintons are number 2, and theirs have been almost generational).

Yet, how exposed were Alfred and Alison to treecats as a whole during their time? And I wonder if occupation and age would have a bearing on the fruit.

I see bonding as the same concept as a human finding his/her soulmate. If you exclude certain races, religions, occupations and also factor in geographic separation then the chance of finding one's soulmate seriously dwindles.

Geographic separation seems to be changing for the cats, which is a positive. And if certain genetic modifications are a necessity, that becomes a limiting factor.

And hopefully the human hosts' minds will be more acceptable as youths, before they become too hardwired in their ways.

At any rate, I suspect that the larger overall interaction between species will see more adoptions.

What I always wondered, is why treecats can't taste a human's mindglow and know whether it's suitable for him or her without ever actually meeting him -- from the taste of that mindglow from his colleague.

<Gather around cats, I've got a wealth of new minds for you all to taste. "Acts Wildly" I've got one I think you'll like quite well>

From the portion of your post I bolded, I think you have not yet read House of Steel, or else have not read very deeply into the details provided in the Honorverse Companion, as opposed to the novella it contains:

House of Steel, The Star Empire of Manticore, Nonhuman Sentient Species, Treecats, NOTABLE TREECATS wrote:Leaf Catcher of Fire Runs Fast Clan (Ariel)
Leaf Catcher bonded with a very young Elizabeth Winton on her state visit to Sphinx in 1880 PD, while she was still the Crown Princess. While smaller and younger than Laughs Brightly, he is in many ways far more mature (or at least sober), as befitting the bondmate to the woman the treecats call “Soul of Steel.”
According to Leaf Catcher’s account, Clan memory singers had passed around images of Elizabeth Winton’s mind-glow to all of the clan members, and Leaf Catcher felt drawn to Elizabeth immediately. When the young Crown Princess arrived in Sphinx for her visit, Leaf Catcher appeared at the edge of the landing pad to meet her, and their bonding was nearly immediate.

Italics are the authors.

RedBaron wrote:What I'm suspecting is that each bonding permanently changes the adopted human's neural pathways, and when that person has children then the minds of those children tend to be somewhat altered/different from normal humanity. Then factor in that one or more of those children get adopted themselves - which further alters their brains.]

I can certainly see that the bonding could cause neural pathways in the brain to change. It would be almost inevitable as repeated new types of stimulus work by rewiring the brain. But that doesn't usually require a genetic change, much less one in the genes of a person's ova or sperm.

So I find the chance of a direct genetic change passing through to the bonded persons offspring to be quite unlikely; hence not a plausibly way of getting the multi-generational improvement you were looking for.



However I could easily believe that there's a more subtle force at work leading to similar ends through different means.
A bonded person, especially one even slightly sensitive to a 'cat's emotional link, will (I believe) likely be influenced by the 'cat's reaction to people they interact with. And I'd hypothesize that even an already bonded 'cat would be especially favorable towards someone with a good mind glow -- one that at least approached the level to be compatible with a bonding. That favorability leaking back down the emotional connection could apply a selection pressure towards marrying people with bright mind glows (whether or not they have bonded).

Then presumably the offspring of people with brighter mind glows would tend to be on the bright glow side themselves; and more likely to be bonded and subject to the same influences. And of course the ones most sensitive to the 'cats would also be the ones being most inclined towards others with tasty mind glows. Give that several generations and you might well see, do to indirect selection pressure, the upward trend you were thinking off. All without requiring a mental change to directly alter the bonded person's reproductive DNA.

Jonathan_S wrote:So I find the chance of a direct genetic change passing through to the bonded persons offspring to be quite unlikely; hence not a plausibly way of getting the multi-generational improvement you were looking for.



However I could easily believe that there's a more subtle force at work leading to similar ends through different means.

This ^^^

A 'Cat's reaction/acceptance of a bond-mate's potential spouse would tend to result in a "selective breeding" for compatibility with Treecats.

cthia wrote:

WLBjork wrote:Problem there is that Alfred wasn't adopted, nor was Alison.

I'm also pretty sure that whilst Harringtons have had the highest proportion of adoptions, it's not quite a once-per-generation thing - but it can't be far off either (as the Wintons are number 2, and theirs have been almost generational).

Yet, how exposed were Alfred and Alison to treecats as a whole during their time? And I wonder if occupation and age would have a bearing on the fruit.

I see bonding as the same concept as a human finding his/her soulmate. If you exclude certain races, religions, occupations and also factor in geographic separation then the chance of finding one's soulmate seriously dwindles.

Geographic separation seems to be changing for the cats, which is a positive. And if certain genetic modifications are a necessity, that becomes a limiting factor.

And hopefully the human hosts' minds will be more acceptable as youths, before they become too hardwired in their ways.

At any rate, I suspect that the larger overall interaction between species will see more adoptions.

What I always wondered, is why treecats can't taste a human's mindglow and know whether it's suitable for him or her without ever actually meeting him -- from the taste of that mindglow from his colleague.

<Gather around cats, I've got a wealth of new minds for you all to taste. "Acts Wildly" I've got one I think you'll like quite well>

Vince wrote:From the portion of your post I bolded, I think you have not yet read House of Steel, or else have not read very deeply into the details provided in the Honorverse Companion, as opposed to the novella it contains:

House of Steel, The Star Empire of Manticore, Nonhuman Sentient Species, Treecats, NOTABLE TREECATS wrote:Leaf Catcher of Fire Runs Fast Clan (Ariel)
Leaf Catcher bonded with a very young Elizabeth Winton on her state visit to Sphinx in 1880 PD, while she was still the Crown Princess. While smaller and younger than Laughs Brightly, he is in many ways far more mature (or at least sober), as befitting the bondmate to the woman the treecats call “Soul of Steel.”
According to Leaf Catcher’s account, Clan memory singers had passed around images of Elizabeth Winton’s mind-glow to all of the clan members, and Leaf Catcher felt drawn to Elizabeth immediately. When the young Crown Princess arrived in Sphinx for her visit, Leaf Catcher appeared at the edge of the landing pad to meet her, and their bonding was nearly immediate.

Italics are the authors.

Well I'll be a monkey's uncle. Thanks Vince. I was worried that I was reaching but it just seemed plausible. Thanks again.

And you are correct in your assumptions regarding my reading homework.

RedBaron wrote:

Daryl wrote:Can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't

Great, here we go again.

If you want blind acceptance of whatever you say, I suggest talking to a dog. Part of engaging in genuine discussion is finding the problems with the idea.

RedBaron wrote:

Daryl wrote:Can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't can't

Great, here we go again.

zyffyr wrote:If you want blind acceptance of whatever you say, I suggest talking to a dog. Part of engaging in genuine discussion is finding the problems with the idea.

Wise beyond his post count

WLBjork wrote:
What I always wondered, is why treecats can't taste a human's mindglow and know whether it's suitable for him or her without ever actually meeting him -- from the taste of that mindglow from his colleague.

<Gather around cats, I've got a wealth of new minds for you all to taste. "Acts Wildly" I've got one I think you'll like quite well>

Vince wrote:From the portion of your post I bolded, I think you have not yet read House of Steel, or else have not read very deeply into the details provided in the Honorverse Companion, as opposed to the novella it contains:

House of Steel, The Star Empire of Manticore, Nonhuman Sentient Species, Treecats, NOTABLE TREECATS wrote:Leaf Catcher of Fire Runs Fast Clan (Ariel)
.

????? Spoiler alert??? In a more limited way, That is what happens in ART before Filareta's fleet makes its grand appearance. The cats decide to be useful as body guards for the Havenites. Though not adoption, itn was commented that the personalities of cat and human seemed particularly well matched as if ... as you suggest.

WeirdlyWired wrote:????? Spoiler alert??? In a more limited way, That is what happens in ART before Filareta's fleet makes its grand appearance. The cats decide to be useful as body guards for the Havenites. Though not adoption, itn was commented that the personalities of cat and human seemed particularly well matched as if ... as you suggest.

What about Sorrow Singer's statement to Honor from ART for that matter?



However, getting back to the original point, there's some interesting tidbits in the short story "Changer of Worlds" (from the anthology "Changer of Worlds"), in which the Treecats note that the Harrington clan are less mind-blind than others.

That suggests that whilst exposure to the empathic senses of Treecats *may* have helped, there was something there in the first place to work with.

I don't think it's the child bonding, though that no doubt helps, but bonded pregnant women.
It's been stated a few times that cats like children, and from Honor we know that a foetus can be sensed/communicated with to some degree. And the strange tbing about a foetus/baby is how much their brain developes.

With a constant cat, yeah I can see some affect.
Not at the genetic level as posited in the OP, but definately at the developement level

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