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"Obsolete SDs" Waste not...

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Re: "Obsolete SDs" Waste not...
Post by RedBaron   » Tue Oct 04, 2016 6:20 am

RedBaron

Duckk wrote:
RedBaron wrote:TO ALL YOU LAZY PEOPLE WHO KEEP MAKING EXCUSES WHY THE SOLLY SD'S CAN'T/SHOULDN'T BE REFITTED....

Why were the Peep Wallers refitted by Grayson then instead of just being shoved into their sun?


Saying something can't be done, or that there's no point trying, only shows your own lack of intelligence.


That's uncalled for. Discuss the merits of the topic with a modicum of decorum, or earn a vacation from the board.


What's uncalled for is the constant "CAN'T" chanting, DUCKK.
It's like they're compelled to shoot down ANY possible use or idea simply because THEY were too lazy and or dumb to think of it.
If that gets me banned from here, it'll just prove you are like so many other admins, who allow friends to do what they please while stepping on others for daring to speak up.
WHICH, I might add, will also splatter all over the author, since he gave you your position.
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Re: "Obsolete SDs" Waste not...
Post by Duckk   » Tue Oct 04, 2016 6:26 am

Duckk
Site Admin

Posts: 4200
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As I have clearly explained in the forum rules, flaming other posters is disallowed. This isn't 4chan. It is possible to disagree without being insulting. So, again, show a minimal level of respect towards other posters.
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Shields at 50%, taunting at 100%! - Tom Pope
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Re: "Obsolete SDs" Waste not...
Post by RedBaron   » Tue Oct 04, 2016 6:45 am

RedBaron

So nary a word to those who denigrated others, but suddenly efficient when someone calls them on it.
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Re: "Obsolete SDs" Waste not...
Post by Duckk   » Tue Oct 04, 2016 6:56 am

Duckk
Site Admin

Posts: 4200
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 5:29 pm

RedBaron wrote:So nary a word to those who denigrated others, but suddenly efficient when someone calls them on it.


I have gone back several pages and have found nothing in the topic which violates the rules. The discussions by the people in this thread have been on point and focused solely the topic, instead of throwing shade at other posters.

That said, I am not omniscient. I can't keep up with the post volume on the board. If you think someone is violating the rules, feel free to send it into the moderation queue using the link at the bottom of every post.
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Shields at 50%, taunting at 100%! - Tom Pope
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Re: "Obsolete SDs" Waste not...
Post by The E   » Tue Oct 04, 2016 8:24 am

The E
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RedBaron wrote:What's uncalled for is the constant "CAN'T" chanting, DUCKK.
It's like they're compelled to shoot down ANY possible use or idea simply because THEY were too lazy and or dumb to think of it.


On the contrary. Most of the people participating in these threads have thought about ways in which these ships could be put to use. Then those of us who are given to think about things like logistics and priorities have raised objections to those plans based on our understanding of the Honorverse and the textev describing the state of the Manticoran spaceship industry.

The conclusion we came to, taken all of this into account, is that there are no uses for these ships in active alliance service. Not in their current form, and definitely not in any form that would require refitting them, as there is little to no capacity to do those refits with. So, what remains is using them as bargaining chips to offer to ex-SL systems or as targets; anything else (and I believe I mentioned this earlier in the thread) has to pass the simple litmus test of asking whether whatever use you want to put these ships to can be better and cheaper done using purpose-built vessels or infrastructure.

If that gets me banned from here, it'll just prove you are like so many other admins, who allow friends to do what they please while stepping on others for daring to speak up.


Noone wants to curtail your right to post. You, like everyone else here, are free to post your ideas and theories, but everyone else is just as free to shoot holes in them. Given the lengths to which this topic in particular has been discussed over the past few years, it should not be surprising that most of the obvious ideas (and quite a few of the wildly ridiculous ones too) have already been discussed, and unless you are prepared to offer explanations that address the issues that were found in those earlier discussions, you should not expect us to treat those ideas in any way differently from the way Honor treated the early ideas of one Admiral Hemphill.
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Re: "Obsolete SDs" Waste not...
Post by Potato   » Tue Oct 04, 2016 9:40 am

Potato
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The reason why everyone is shooting down refitting the Solarian SDs is because the author himself has repeatedly explained the logistical and engineering difficulties in doing so. For example, here:

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... ngton/82/1

And here (as reposted from Baen's Bar by Bruno Behrends):

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2420&p=47962
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Re: "Obsolete SDs" Waste not...
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Oct 04, 2016 2:26 pm

Jonathan_S
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The E wrote:Noone wants to curtail your right to post. You, like everyone else here, are free to post your ideas and theories, but everyone else is just as free to shoot holes in them. Given the lengths to which this topic in particular has been discussed over the past few years, it should not be surprising that most of the obvious ideas (and quite a few of the wildly ridiculous ones too) have already been discussed, and unless you are prepared to offer explanations that address the issues that were found in those earlier discussions, you should not expect us to treat those ideas in any way differently from the way Honor treated the early ideas of one Admiral Hemphill.
Ah, if only it was just the last couple years. Some form of this reuse of captured ships discussion has been going on for 10 years now with occasional input from David Weber. The limitations, drawbacks, (and inferiority to ships the Alliance already has in its reserves) have been well established over those years.

Now none of that means that it's impossible for a for someone to come up with some idea that overcomes or addresses all those known limitations and drawbacks. It just hasn't happened much in the 10 years we've been trying.


(Though to be fair it did take a surprisingly long time, in retrospect, for someone (forget who now; sorry) to point out that the SDs captured at Spindle should have had armories full of small arms and armor compatible with, or even somewhat superior to, that used by most planetary ground forces within the Talbott Quadrent. Making that a ready short term source of additional arms for any expanded Talbott Guard - not to mention pinnaces and assault shuttles to use to support those same forces)
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Re: "Obsolete SDs" Waste not...
Post by Theemile   » Tue Oct 04, 2016 2:55 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:Ah, if only it was just the last couple years. Some form of this reuse of captured ships discussion has been going on for 10 years now with occasional input from David Weber. The limitations, drawbacks, (and inferiority to ships the Alliance already has in its reserves) have been well established over those years.

Now none of that means that it's impossible for a for someone to come up with some idea that overcomes or addresses all those known limitations and drawbacks. It just hasn't happened much in the 10 years we've been trying.


(Though to be fair it did take a surprisingly long time, in retrospect, for someone (forget who now; sorry) to point out that the SDs captured at Spindle should have had armories full of small arms and armor compatible with, or even somewhat superior to, that used by most planetary ground forces within the Talbott Quadrent. Making that a ready short term source of additional arms for any expanded Talbott Guard - not to mention pinnaces and assault shuttles to use to support those same forces)


That was me actually; I proposed it for the PRH SD(p)s captured in the Battle of Manticore in giving the armories, pinnances, remaining pods, drones, LACS, and the contents of the hospitals and repair shops to Torch to equip it's growing army and navy in a way that wouldn't become a logistical burden on Manticore - and actually would burden Haven. I (and others who remembered it from the original post) later suggested it for the SDs captured in the Talbot quadrant.

Red Baron, I realize I am probably one of those who your sharp posts are aimed at; You must realize you are jumping into the middle of a nearly 10 year discussion on this topic, and myself and others have tried to bring this to your attention and point you at some of those earlier post threads so you can learn what we have learned over the years through discussion, analysis, and authorial input. And like all lengthy discussions, when one jumps in at the end, one will not always get the full benefit of the conversation, as the other participants are tired of rehashing the conversation, as has happened nearly every month or 2 for the last 10 years.

As far as the forum goes, most of us try to be realistic and logical in our conversations here, and not take personal sides. Many of us are professional engineers and scientists who are quite knowledgeable in our fields, and bring our experience working in business, education, and government to the forums, despite this being a discussion about fiction. It is SCIENCE Fiction after all, and the author has created this universe with a realistic set of rules which are consistent and based on historical examples and generally follow known science.

That being said, you are welcome to - and encouraged - to express your thoughts, but be advised that us veterans will point out any issues, especially on any dead horse subject such as this.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: "Obsolete SDs" Waste not...
Post by crewdude48   » Tue Oct 04, 2016 4:39 pm

crewdude48
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I've said it before, and I will say it again. When you propose a use for the SLN SD's you need to answer why it is better to use them than it would be to use
A) the mothballed Manticoran tube wallers,
B) the captured and returned RHN wallers,
C) the almost complete or recently completed RHN wallers,
D) new build RHN ships,
E) new build warships from the Andies, Beowulf, or any of their other allies,
F) commandeered/purchased used civilian ships, or
G) new build civilian ships purchased from allies.

I can't see anything aside from stripping and scrapping where the SLN ships would fit that criteria.
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Re: "Obsolete SDs" Waste not...
Post by Weird Harold   » Tue Oct 04, 2016 5:04 pm

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crewdude48 wrote:I've said it before, and I will say it again. When you propose a use for the SLN SD's you need to answer why it is better to use them than it would be to use
A) the mothballed Manticoran tube wallers,
B) the captured and returned RHN wallers,
C) the almost complete or recently completed RHN wallers,
D) new build RHN ships,
E) new build warships from the Andies, Beowulf, or any of their other allies,
F) commandeered/purchased used civilian ships, or
G) new build civilian ships purchased from allies.

I can't see anything aside from stripping and scrapping where the SLN ships would fit that criteria.


I'd add:

E1) Surplus warships from Andermani, Beowulf, Erewhon, or other un-named sources.

E2) New Build warships from Erewhon or other un-named sources not part of the Grand Alliance.
.
.
.
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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