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QUESTION ABOUT WEAPON SYSTEMS

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Re: QUESTION ABOUT WEAPON SYSTEMS
Post by SharkHunter   » Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:33 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
Cataphract wrote:Wouldn't the space be better used for more missile tubes or the like? With the RMN advantage in missiles and targeting systems how would anything ever get into energy/beam range?


This is basically the same argument that resulted in early models of the F-4 Phantom not having a gun -- "The dogfight is dead, long live BVR missiles."

Note that the lesson was learned and even the newest fighters have internal cannons for close-in dog-fighting.

The same principle applies to starship design, and the Bellerophon's encounter with a task group of PRN Battle cruisers in SVW is an example of why ships need energy mounts.
Brilliant quote about the Bellerophon (for the reader who asked, that's in the book called "A Short Victorious War, the 3rd book). Another might be how the battleship class was in action all the way through the 1990's, because it could maintain a higher rate of deadly fire close-in to shore based targets.

Nobody's going to build "new, old style SD's". They are going to build better smaller ships. But the big boys still have a role in a universe with thousands of settled planets: preventing warlordism, should they make that their one and only goal. Trouble is, the OFS is the big bully warlord support system throughout most of the Verge.

Consider that in the Honorverse a graser's range is two to three times the distance from the Earth to the moon. It's the one thing that says to me that even a Solarian SD or Khumalo's ship in the Talbot sectors are still effective but only in a close-in planetary defense role. One well managed SD in planetary orbit, plus limpeted pods likely would have kept Warnecke from taking Marsh intact in HoE, for example. Caveat Emptor: pods were new and and DDMs/MDMs were still a future development at that point in the storyline. But you get the gist, right?
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Re: QUESTION ABOUT WEAPON SYSTEMS
Post by BobG   » Wed Sep 28, 2016 12:14 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote: (snipped)
OTOH it would really suck to have no energy mounts if you got caught in energy range, or ran into somebody while in transit through a grav wave. We saw how Theisman's missile heavy CL, back in Honor of the Queen, wasn't as lethal as it could have been when forced to use laserheads at energy range after mousetrapping some of Honor's little force. And in a grav wave you don't have that option at all. So retaining a few seems like a reasonable idea, even if they're more backup or special purpose weapons rather than your main shipkillers.

I think Grav Waves are the most likely scenario where you have to use energy weapons. Without Grazers, your ships (SDs or lesser) are just targets. Just like SLN SDs in long missile range :D

Your other points are also telling. And energy weapons are an inexpensive and reusable alternative for ripping up a system's infrastructure.

-- Bob G
SF & Fantasy: The only things better than Chocolate.
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Re: QUESTION ABOUT WEAPON SYSTEMS
Post by crewdude48   » Wed Sep 28, 2016 12:17 pm

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Cataphract wrote:With the RMN advantage in missiles and targeting systems how would anything ever get into energy/beam range?


By having a Spider drive. Some unknown enemy has just proven that they have a drive system that can't be detected at any sort of range, and you want to eliminate the close in weapons?
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Re: QUESTION ABOUT WEAPON SYSTEMS
Post by kzt   » Wed Sep 28, 2016 12:59 pm

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crewdude48 wrote:By having a Spider drive. Some unknown enemy has just proven that they have a drive system that can't be detected at any sort of range, and you want to eliminate the close in weapons?

It has been stated that the most experienced spide-drive using navy cannot detect their ships before they are in effective energy range of their vessels. So your detection of a spider will be when you get blow up by one.
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Welcome Cataphract ...
Post by HB of CJ   » Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:01 pm

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Welcome aboard this excellent fun science fiction forum. The first six, (6) rounds of ale are on us. Glug, glug, glug.

So are the second six, (6) rounds. More glug glug glug. Now what was I saying? Forgot. Who cares anyhow. Hick! :)
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Re: Welcome Cataphract ...
Post by Theemile   » Wed Sep 28, 2016 5:07 pm

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HB of CJ wrote:Welcome aboard this excellent fun science fiction forum. The first six, (6) rounds of ale are on us. Glug, glug, glug.

So are the second six, (6) rounds. More glug glug glug. Now what was I saying? Forgot. Who cares anyhow. Hick! :)


That reminds me of some advice once given to me by a friend after a long term girlfriend left me and gave me the most amazingly, mindboggling, dumfounding reasons for doing so.

His advice, while motioning for the waitress, was "Have another beer it might make sense."

After the beer - and my continuing bewilderment at my recollection of the figurative truck my ex had run me over with - my friend, motioning again for the waitress, repeated his advice - "Have another beer, it might make sense.

After several more iterations, I asked my friend if his advice ever worked. He replied that continued use of his advice will have one of 4 outcomes.

1) It finally will make sense.
2) You won't care if it makes sense or not.
3) You will not be able to remember what happened to you or who did it.
4) The paramedics won't allow him on the ambulance with a pair of beers to continue the advice.

Fortunately, It never got to #4....

Now the odd thing was what happened several weeks later, when the professor of my graduate Quantum Mechanics class said, "Trust me, after a couple of beers, this really does make sense."
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RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Welcome Cataphract ...
Post by Fox2!   » Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:29 pm

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HB of CJ wrote:Welcome aboard this excellent fun science fiction forum. The first six, (6) rounds of ale are on us. Glug, glug, glug.

So are the second six, (6) rounds. More glug glug glug. Now what was I saying? Forgot. Who cares anyhow. Hick! :)


The third six rounds are also on us. And on the floor. And on everybody within ... well, let's just leave it at that.

Slainte!
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Re: QUESTION ABOUT WEAPON SYSTEMS
Post by Cataphract   » Mon Oct 03, 2016 8:28 am

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Thanks to everyone for making me feel welcome and answering questions, so here goes...........

How about some info on energy weapons-grasers to be exact. Apparently they come in different 'sizes', meaning combat power, but there is nothing specific that I can find anywhere. I read about 'SD' size grasers and grasers on Nike BC 'almost as powerful as those on SD', but really nothing else- despite searching through House of Steel. So in maybe a bad analogy, the Mantis are putting say 16" guns (grasers) on a BC that would normally mount maybe 12" variety?

Second question would be about the Fleet Train. I know in Starfire, David spent a lot of time and space on auxiliaries designs and their importance. 'Colliers', tugs, repair ships etc. I have seen reference to the 'Caravan' class, but little else.
Can anyone shed some light?


Thanks again
Jeff
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Re: QUESTION ABOUT WEAPON SYSTEMS
Post by Somtaaw   » Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:17 am

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kzt wrote:
crewdude48 wrote:By having a Spider drive. Some unknown enemy has just proven that they have a drive system that can't be detected at any sort of range, and you want to eliminate the close in weapons?

It has been stated that the most experienced spide-drive using navy cannot detect their ships before they are in effective energy range of their vessels. So your detection of a spider will be when you get blow up by one.



It was also stated that spider-drive ships are also only truly invisible as long as they can orient their stealth on only one bearing. The second they have to try to be stealthy in more than one bearing, their stealth disappears with frightening speed [the scout in Grayson running into a destroyer flotilla doing exercises]


And GA systems are thickly seeded with overlapping FTL sensor buoys, which means all the tests the MAlign did as part of field-testing their spider-drive is irrelevant because they probably don't have the same level of RD tech. They almost certainly don't have the early Ghost Rider fusion cores, which puts their longest endurance RD's somewhere to a few hours due to capacitors.
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Re: QUESTION ABOUT WEAPON SYSTEMS
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:27 am

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Cataphract wrote:Thanks to everyone for making me feel welcome and answering questions, so here goes...........

How about some info on energy weapons-grasers to be exact. Apparently they come in different 'sizes', meaning combat power, but there is nothing specific that I can find anywhere. I read about 'SD' size grasers and grasers on Nike BC 'almost as powerful as those on SD', but really nothing else- despite searching through House of Steel. So in maybe a bad analogy, the Mantis are putting say 16" guns (grasers) on a BC that would normally mount maybe 12" variety?

Second question would be about the Fleet Train. I know in Starfire, David spent a lot of time and space on auxiliaries designs and their importance. 'Colliers', tugs, repair ships etc. I have seen reference to the 'Caravan' class, but little else.
Can anyone shed some light?


Thanks again
Jeff
In the upcoming (only released so far in advance reader copy) Shadow of Victory we do get a look at a new fleet train fast repair / support ship, a 3 mton "fast combat support vessel" (FSV). And we've seen the "mammoth repair vessels" like HMS Erikson which worked on Hexapuma after the battle of Monica, and various sized ammo ships. But that's about all I can think of being described in terms of fleet train.


You're right that House of Steel omitted the energy weapon sizes, and they're rarely if ever mentioned in the text. But the older semi-canonical Jayne's (and IIRC SITS) books list them for the few ships they cover. Here are some graser sizes:

King William-class Superdreadnaught &
Majestic-class Dreadnaught
Grasers 360cm Broadside, 410cm Chase

Reliant-class Battlecruiser
Grasers 140cm Broadside, 140cm Chase

Homer-class Battlecruiser
Grasers 140cm Broadside, 155cm Chase

Star Knight-class Heavy Cruiser
Grasers 140cm Broadside, N/A Chase

Courageous-class Light Cruiser
Grasers 42cm Broadside, N/A Chase

And none of the Destroyers I see mount sizes for carried Grasers.

So if the SD/DN mounted the equivalent of an 18" rifle, the BC/CAs would fire 7" rounds, while the CL carried just a puny 2.1" gun. (Considering their broadside mounts)
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