Hyper Ships As Generation Ships

MaxxQ wrote:

cthia wrote:
Old terminology has to change to reflect the advancements in the tech which advances the scope.

Maybe, but for now, you'd better be specific in what you mean, because most people use the definitions as linked by crewdude.

This really is humorous to me. Partly anyways.

I stated that the notion breaks new ground. At least in my head. I found something new — and just as some astronomers do, I have the onus and privilege of naming it. Some call their new discoveries something like Betelgeuse, others may choose something a bit more esoteric akin to "M578923."

My inability to come up with the proper nomenclature accepted by my peers relegates the task to my colleagues, therefore you all name it. Whether you agree there's a use for it or not, name it. Didn't know we were discussing the right to be immortalized in history right beside Warshawski. But I'll happily pass the task to you. * There's no I in team.

* I have a problem with this saying since the day my niece says to me...

"I don't understand that saying. Since there is an I in team. There's certainly an I on the team unless I've been booted. Therefore, there's an I in the team. I, am the goalie!"

Well, we're happy to be of service, although it sounds as if you're rather easily amused. However...

"I stated that the notion breaks new ground. At least in my head." Therein lies the rub - it's in your head and AFAICT that's where it's stayed. You may well have an original concept, but nothing you've _said_ has displayed any originality whatsoever. You talk of exploration and development in the Honorverse as if it came to a screeching halt some vague time in the past, when we know from textev that it is very much on-going, reaching a particularly intensive pitch in the regions surrounding newly-discovered worm-hole termini. Thus I doubt that that's what you're trying to get at. Your references to the old-style colonisation ships do lead me to believe that what you are proposing is extremely long-duration exploration voyages, lasting centuries. Which really isn't all that original a thought, I'm afraid, although I'd be rather surprised to find anyone in the Honorverse doing it currently, for reasons given by others: where would you go and why would you bother, and more importantly how would you pay for it, since trips of that duration are taking hyperships far outside the Milky Way, but not yet anywhere else [all our satellite galaxies are less than 100 years away in hyper, and probably not worth the effort]. Even SagA* is no more than 25 years away, and I can see some academic putting together a trip to the center of the Galaxy, just to find out if our models are accurate. But I, personally, would designate ships designed for that sort of trip as 'long-duration exploration vessels'. Or maybe "imperial planetoids", since that's exactly the kind of deployment Dahak was designed for.

Which takes us to your point about terminology. With illustrative aside. To whit, spouting gibberish only weakens your argument. You see, while specialist terminology may be esoteric - at least to those outside the specialty, what it never is is arbitrary. Betelguese does have several alternative designations, use of which depends on the point of the discussions. Alpha Orionis tells you that it's the brightest star of the constellation Orion, for example, and therefore roughly where to find it on a star map or on the sky. HD39801 indicates the 39,801st entry in the Henry Draper Catalogue of spectroscopic classifications; SAO113271 is the entry in the Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory's astrometric catalogue of positions and proper motions that tells you where to point your telescope to see it today, as opposed to where it was in 1950 or 1900. And so on, through a substantial list of catalogues, each of which was created to provide a specific set of data to people looking at a particular set of questions, none of which consists of arbitrary gobbledygook. M should indicate an object in the Messier Catalogue. Problem is, that particular catlogue only contains 110 objects, none of which are stars, so M578923 is meaningless [something quite distinct from incorrect, which HD578923 would be]. Waltzing in and saying "nope, that's what I'm calling it in the Me Catalogue, it has that number because I like the look of it, and I don't particularly care that the rest of the world thinks that M stands for Messier" will, at best, get you laughed at. More likely, it gets you dismissed as a crackpot with no ideas worthy of attention.

So terminology matters. Correct use of established terminology simplifies life for everybody. New coinages have to be clearly and succinctly explained - and allowed a dignified death if they aren't taken up by the community.

cthia wrote:This really is humorous to me. Partly anyways.

I stated that the notion breaks new ground. At least in my head. I found something new — and just as some astronomers do, I have the onus and privilege of naming it. Some call their new discoveries something like Betelgeuse, others may choose something a bit more esoteric akin to "M578923."

My inability to come up with the proper nomenclature accepted by my peers relegates the task to my colleagues, therefore you all name it. Whether you agree there's a use for it or not, name it. Didn't know we were discussing the right to be immortalized in history right beside Warshawski. But I'll happily pass the task to you. * There's no I in team.

* I have a problem with this saying since the day my niece says to me...

"I don't understand that saying. Since there is an I in team. There's certainly an I on the team unless I've been booted. Therefore, there's an I in the team. I, am the goalie!"

Oh ye of little faith and lots of assumptions.

I check in on the forum and I see this nonsense. So I go right back to the fun at hand. Oh the fun. Oh the fun! I don't get enough of this fun stuff anymore.


I was moments before watching a pair of Cerwin Vega's bite the dust against...

Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture, Op. 49 - TELARC Edition - WARNING! Digitally Recorded LIVE Cannons!

Get the CD! Oh, the fun. The fun.

Anyone have any speakers, other than Bose 901, that didn't fry, pack it in or had to be saved by the stereo system itself? Only my Bose 901s have successfully played that Overture. I've had several other speaker systems myself slayed. It is the canons that do it every time around 12.38 minutes.

https://youtu.be/-ogotVeBO6M


****** *


Everyone wants to apply this notion of extended surveying to its extreme. There's no sense of metered balance.

"Why do you have to crank your Cerwin Vegas up to three quarter max?"

Seems there's just nothing subtle about imagining concepts or playing speaker systems.

Sure, when you apply the notion to its extreme, it melts down, so too did my friend's Cerwin Vegas. Well actually, his Vegas shut off before melting. Few minutes later they came back on. Stereo cutout.

And yes, there is a method to the madness of naming stellar phenomena. But for the average Joe it is going to be as meaningless as the hieroglyphics on the wall -- and that was the point. Not to have to give dissertations like some of you require. (Unless you really didn't think that I knew that these designations actually had a method to their madness???)

So stop using, IMO, another form of Godwin's Law, which I'll post soon, to derail a conversation with petty nonsense.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=7904

"Cthia. You should have called it this..." Would have sufficed.

I don't like to always have to write dissertations. This forum seems to require it. A lot.

Louis R wrote:Well, we're happy to be of service, although it sounds as if you're rather easily amused. However...

"I stated that the notion breaks new ground. At least in my head." Therein lies the rub - it's in your head and AFAICT that's where it's stayed. You may well have an original concept, but nothing you've _said_ has displayed any originality whatsoever. You talk of exploration and development in the Honorverse as if it came to a screeching halt some vague time in the past, when we know from textev that it is very much on-going, reaching a particularly intensive pitch in the regions surrounding newly-discovered worm-hole termini. Thus I doubt that that's what you're trying to get at. Your references to the old-style colonisation ships do lead me to believe that what you are proposing is extremely long-duration exploration voyages, lasting centuries. Which really isn't all that original a thought, I'm afraid, although I'd be rather surprised to find anyone in the Honorverse doing it currently, for reasons given by others: where would you go and why would you bother, and more importantly how would you pay for it, since trips of that duration are taking hyperships far outside the Milky Way, but not yet anywhere else [all our satellite galaxies are less than 100 years away in hyper, and probably not worth the effort]. Even SagA* is no more than 25 years away, and I can see some academic putting together a trip to the center of the Galaxy, just to find out if our models are accurate. But I, personally, would designate ships designed for that sort of trip as 'long-duration exploration vessels'. Or maybe "imperial planetoids", since that's exactly the kind of deployment Dahak was designed for.

Which takes us to your point about terminology. With illustrative aside. To whit, spouting gibberish only weakens your argument. You see, while specialist terminology may be esoteric - at least to those outside the specialty, what it never is is arbitrary. Betelguese does have several alternative designations, use of which depends on the point of the discussions. Alpha Orionis tells you that it's the brightest star of the constellation Orion, for example, and therefore roughly where to find it on a star map or on the sky. HD39801 indicates the 39,801st entry in the Henry Draper Catalogue of spectroscopic classifications; SAO113271 is the entry in the Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory's astrometric catalogue of positions and proper motions that tells you where to point your telescope to see it today, as opposed to where it was in 1950 or 1900. And so on, through a substantial list of catalogues, each of which was created to provide a specific set of data to people looking at a particular set of questions, none of which consists of arbitrary gobbledygook. M should indicate an object in the Messier Catalogue. Problem is, that particular catlogue only contains 110 objects, none of which are stars, so M578923 is meaningless [something quite distinct from incorrect, which HD578923 would be]. Waltzing in and saying "nope, that's what I'm calling it in the Me Catalogue, it has that number because I like the look of it, and I don't particularly care that the rest of the world thinks that M stands for Messier" will, at best, get you laughed at. More likely, it gets you dismissed as a crackpot with no ideas worthy of attention.

So terminology matters. Correct use of established terminology simplifies life for everybody. New coinages have to be clearly and succinctly explained - and allowed a dignified death if they aren't taken up by the community.

cthia wrote:This really is humorous to me. Partly anyways.

I stated that the notion breaks new ground. At least in my head. I found something new — and just as some astronomers do, I have the onus and privilege of naming it. Some call their new discoveries something like Betelgeuse, others may choose something a bit more esoteric akin to "M578923."

My inability to come up with the proper nomenclature accepted by my peers relegates the task to my colleagues, therefore you all name it. Whether you agree there's a use for it or not, name it. Didn't know we were discussing the right to be immortalized in history right beside Warshawski. But I'll happily pass the task to you. * There's no I in team.

* I have a problem with this saying since the day my niece says to me...

"I don't understand that saying. Since there is an I in team. There's certainly an I on the team unless I've been booted. Therefore, there's an I in the team. I, am the goalie!"

Weird Harold wrote:

cthia wrote:Can you imagine if that had happened to the Wintons?

Don't have to, it did happen to the Wintons (actually the "Manticore Corporation.") Luckily, the "claim jumpers" in this case were hired by the Manticore Trust to ensure no other claim jumpers took over.

Sorry, missed this somehow. In every case, wouldn't there be legal action the original owners could take, sooner or later -- or that'd be a foregone conclusion?

cthia wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:
Don't have to, it did happen to the Wintons (actually the "Manticore Corporation.") Luckily, the "claim jumpers" in this case were hired by the Manticore Trust to ensure no other claim jumpers took over.

Sorry, missed this somehow. In every case, wouldn't there be legal action the original owners could take, sooner or later -- or that'd be a foregone conclusion?

And who would force compliance with this legal ruling? For that matter if it was a later hyper capable colony ship that did the claim jumping how would the original sub-light settlers even get back to civilization to even lodge a complaint?

Earth is trying to recover from its final war, and its before the solarium league navy; plus it'd be outside their jurisdiction. I'm pretty sure if a colony got claim jumped there's nobody to enforce the original claims unless the original owners had the foresight to bring their own military force.

Now if you're talking much later diaspora colonies who stay in hyper contact with their parent world there is both far less time lapse during which try claim jumping and someone reasonably nearby who probably have military force handy to enforce their claims.

cthia wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:
Don't have to, it did happen to the Wintons (actually the "Manticore Corporation.") Luckily, the "claim jumpers" in this case were hired by the Manticore Trust to ensure no other claim jumpers took over.

Sorry, missed this somehow. In every case, wouldn't there be legal action the original owners could take, sooner or later -- or that'd be a foregone conclusion?

Jonathan_S wrote:And who would force compliance with this legal ruling? For that matter if it was a later hyper capable colony ship that did the claim jumping how would the original sub-light settlers even get back to civilization to even lodge a complaint?

Earth is trying to recover from its final war, and its before the solarium league navy; plus it'd be outside their jurisdiction. I'm pretty sure if a colony got claim jumped there's nobody to enforce the original claims unless the original owners had the foresight to bring their own military force.

Now if you're talking much later diaspora colonies who stay in hyper contact with their parent world there is both far less time lapse during which try claim jumping and someone reasonably nearby who probably have military force handy to enforce their claims.

Just doesn't seem right. Hell, it isn't right. Legally, it wouldn't be outside of their jurisdiction. Who sold them the claim? All parties are from Earth!

After the SLN had been established these claim jumpers should have been dealt with just as sure as anyone guilty of an Eridani violation. Claim jumpers have just destroyed the lives of entire colony ships!

I know that would have taken quite some time and many of the settlers could be dead. But rights could easily have been wronged by overthrowing governments, jailing the bastards responsible if alive and handing the government and the planet over to the rightful owners or their descendants.

Aside:
For the few that may be interested. Still the undisputed champ of the speaker world for under $5000 that can successfully play the Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture, Op. 49 - TELARC Edition - WARNING! Digitally Recorded LIVE Cannons!

We tested 11 other speaker systems besides the already proven Bose. Three were over $50,000. All of the over 50k speakers survived but one packed it in then later reset. All of the other systems melted down except the Cerwin Vega with its 18 inch sub. Even it packed it in then later reset.

DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME. Windows were shattered. Wives will be displeased.

You must respect the Overture and heed the warning on the label -- if you love your speaker system(s), your wives and your marriage. Oh, and beware of flying drivers! That canon really shoots -- the inside of speaker systems!

"Lookout! Woofer at two o'clock!"

Bear in mind that claim-jumping wasn't always intentional. Even if intentional, the perperators might well be long deceased by the time the earlier expedition arrives. Their descendants could have become quite numerous, also. Never mind right, who's got more mighty - 10 million descendants or 100,000 people who probably signed disclaimers accepting massive risks anyway?

The earliest expedition could not have bought any claims, as Grayson did - they jumped into the dark, literally on a prayer.

A second survey ship from a different corporation might have discovered the potential colony site - it appears survey companies were required to delete their data once purchased by colonists, without maintaining a central registry.

Indeed, By The Book in the Beginnings anthology(#6) is about the very beginning of the Diaspora. It demonstrates exactly why the earliest expeditions couldn't get a guarantee on their claimed destination - the Earth government was against them leaving!

I imagine the RW equivalent is 10,000 Vikings showing up on the Potomac tomorrow morning and claiming all of America based on Leif Erikson's discovery. That's simply not going to happen.

Pragmatically, the original expedition would be faced with up to three choices, depending upon the strength of the established colony and its hospitality:
A) Integration into the existing colony.
B) Land on an unoccupied island or continent and establish a separate enclave.
C) Head off and hope the backup destination won't be occupied upon arrival.

Some of our current governments on Earth(and too many of our political parties) have a fetish for deportations and immigration controls. Refugees aren't treated very well - and that's what a slow colony would end up becoming, if claim-jumped. Sometimes life sucks and the only authority to appeal to is divine.

And we all know how much that works. Masada gets the nicer, less deadly planet.

cthia wrote:Just doesn't seem right. Hell, it isn't right. Legally, it wouldn't be outside of their jurisdiction. Who sold them the claim? All parties are from Earth!

After the SLN had been established these claim jumpers should have been dealt with just as sure as anyone guilty of an Eridani violation. Claim jumpers have just destroyed the lives of entire colony ships!

First, there's no particular reason for the claim jumpers (or as munroburton pointed out, quite possibly their descendants a couple generations removed) to destroy the colony ship -- they can just tell it to move along and find some other place to colonize. Its not like the colony ship has the weapons to resist such an order.

Second no Earth government guaranteed the sale. And for that matter you aren't actually buying legal rights, or filing claim, to the system, you're buying survey data and the promise that the survey company won't sell that same data to any other colony expeditions or otherwise point them at the system you're planning to colonize.
The most I'd think you'd be able to get legally would be some kind of civil settlement for breach of contract if you could show that the private survey company you bought the data from had shared that with others. But that would entitle you to your money back, not to a year+ military expedition to forcibly resettle the current occupants to some other world. (And even that civil remedy presumes the survey company was still in existence centuries later to sue in the first place)


Now much later in the process, once routine hyper shipping became common, there did evolve ways of buying rights to systems within the sphere of influence of the local interstellar powers. (See Mannerheim quietly acquiring rights to the Felix system; because they're both within League territory) But even now in the Honorverse there doesn't appear to be anyone to buy legal rights of a empty system from if that system sits beyond the claimed borders of any interstellar entity.

cthia wrote:My notion is more concerned with "hyper generational survey ships" to extend mankind into a totally brave new world -- where (even though RFC has said there would never be any aliens) would be where they more likely could be found if there were. Please don't misquote me, I'm not advocating a search for aliens. I'm simply using that as a yardstick to the type of distances surveyable this way -- for any advantages in medicine, tech, materials location or nexuses of wormholes.

Actually, there *are* sentient "aliens" in the Honorverse. There are the treecats on Sphinx, and the aliens in Basilisk, just for a mention of 2 alien races.

I believe there might even have been a brief mention in one of the earlier books that there were others, as well - without giving any details.

However, outside of the stirring of the pot on Medusa by the Peeps, and the treecat's being native to the Manticore system (and, of course, Honor's companion Nimitz); aliens don't really contribute to the series plot as RFC has invisioned it.

Now, an alien incursion right about now might indeed make an interesting development, but obviously this series is more human oriented than anything else.

As for exploration and colonization, I'm sure some exploration is still going on. Probably mostly for resources rather than living space (eg, Torch was settled because of it's lush ecosystem and the pharmaceutical possibilities of it's flora). The three major reasons for colonization would likely be fleeing from disaster (as happened after Earth's last war) ; trying to get away from perceived or actual persecution, and population pressure (which no doubt caused the colonization of what is now referred to as the "core worlds".

Such disasters have been few since the formation of the Solarian League, and it takes a while to fully populate a world to the point that population pressure would tend to force emigration to the extent of colonization expeditions, which, as has been noted previously, tend to be expensive if you want a colony to survive.

And as far as perceived or actual persecution goes, again, it takes funds to mount a colonizing expedition. Most of the folks who likely feel "persecuted" at this point are, as again noted previously, ones with few financial resources.

Probably the last major expedition of this type was the one that founded Mesa.

OrlandoNative wrote:

cthia wrote:My notion is more concerned with "hyper generational survey ships" to extend mankind into a totally brave new world -- where (even though RFC has said there would never be any aliens) would be where they more likely could be found if there were. Please don't misquote me, I'm not advocating a search for aliens. I'm simply using that as a yardstick to the type of distances surveyable this way -- for any advantages in medicine, tech, materials location or nexuses of wormholes.

Actually, there *are* sentient "aliens" in the Honorverse. There are the treecats on Sphinx, and the aliens in Basilisk, just for a mention of 2 alien races.

I believe there might even have been a brief mention in one of the earlier books that there were others, as well - without giving any details.
(SNIP)

The original "A Beautiful Friendship" in _More than Honor_, states that there had been 11 other tool-using alien races encountered in the previous 15 centuries.