Hyper Ships As Generation Ships

The Harvest Joy probably wasn't the only survey ship available to Manticore. Some ship- not identified- did the research and exploration of the wormhole between Idaho and Zunker. That the Harvest Joy was the only ship hired/asigned by the HighRidge government to do the intial exploration of what is the Talbot terminus doens't mean it is the only one- government or private- operating under the Manticore flag. There could be others and they would most likely already employed on whatever projects they have contracted for. Unless a ship is called home by Manticore, private or military, it is going to continue with its mission. For a private exploration company, that means doing the work they have in-hand and at the same time having people out looking for the next clients.

The snarl in the legal ownership of the system (and secret wormhole) that Mannerheim is stitting on was surveyed by somebody, they just didn't notice (or perhaps report) the potential wormhole. That they were connected to someone like Technodyne and "forgot" to mention those intersting readings at a potential wormhole sites ["examination of those areas of which stellar characteristics and historic experience could be potential sites of wormholes for this system found no indication of either any readings associated with wormhole formation nor were any unusal reading encountered. No further exploration for associated potential wormholes is being conducted at this time."

Usable star systems -for either human habitable planets or extractable resources- have got to be potential money makers and even if the Search company isn't going to be able to develop them, their clients stand to make a fortune either by developing them themselves or selling the ownership rights.

Brigade XO wrote:The Harvest Joy probably wasn't the only survey ship available to Manticore. Some ship- not identified- did the research and exploration of the wormhole between Idaho and Zunker. That the Harvest Joy was the only ship hired/asigned by the HighRidge government to do the intial exploration of what is the Talbot terminus doens't mean it is the only one- government or private- operating under the Manticore flag. There could be others and they would most likely already employed on whatever projects they have contracted for. Unless a ship is called home by Manticore, private or military, it is going to continue with its mission. For a private exploration company, that means doing the work they have in-hand and at the same time having people out looking for the next clients.

Also Harvest Joy is specifically a survey ship specializing in wormhole surveys. That's a very limited and specialized subset of exploration and surveying.

It is designed for long range travel through hyper (in the case where it's unable to return through the wormhole it surveyed) but its not (AFAIK) optimized for a number of tasks that other survey ships might specialize in. It want to find and prove new wormhole routes. Other ships might move out through normal hyper and want to perform surveys of grav waves at various hyper bands, or planetary surveys in new star systems (depending on how much detail you want probable lots of manned and unmanned landers), or survey the richness of a new system's asteroid belts (maybe multiple sub-light parasite prospecting ships to more rapidly randomly sample a reasonable number of well distributed rocks.
Plus if you're planning to move further and further out into uncharted space you'd want lots of onboard telescopes to plot your next same emergence spot from hyper.

But you wouldn't be likely to need the ability to do surveys of beacon starts to locate yourself relative to known space - like a wormhole survey ship has to after emerging from the end of an previously untraveled wormhole.

I'm not saying Harvest Joy would be useless at a non-wormhole survey, nor than a "normal" survey ship would be unable to detect or start understanding a wormhole terminus should they stumble across a system with one. Just that survey ships probably tend towards specialization - and due to the slow rate at which new wormhole are discovered most of them likely don't need to specialize in pioneering transit of those.

cthia wrote:Textev, somewhere, gave us that hyper capable colony ships were developed after those original maiden voyages and some of them literally became claim jumpers, arriving far ahead of the "legal" ships and setting up house beforehand.

About these claim jumpers. I would imagine there were many reasons why this would have been successful. But after awhile there should have been legal precedent that would have adjudicated against any such incidences. Can you imagine if that had happened to the Wintons?

cthia wrote:Can you imagine if that had happened to the Wintons?

Don't have to, it did happen to the Wintons (actually the "Manticore Corporation.") Luckily, the "claim jumpers" in this case were hired by the Manticore Trust to ensure no other claim jumpers took over.

cthia wrote:IOW, a cryo ship was a form of birth control? LOL

Seriously, I indicated that I had a problem with nomenclature as this concept breaks entirely new ground. And when you discover something new, you inherit the right, or difficulty, in naming it. It conquers new space. (Pardon the pun.)

YET, it'd still be a generational ship because of the time spent on voyage. You'd have to employ cryo, or possibly no one left to pilot the ship.

I suppose it could be recoined as a "Hyper capable generational cryo survey ship." *shrugs*

The idea of a generation ship is about a century old, and has long had an accepted definition; specifically, a ship where different generations start and finish the journey. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_ship
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleeper_ship

crewdude48 wrote:

cthia wrote:IOW, a cryo ship was a form of birth control? LOL

Seriously, I indicated that I had a problem with nomenclature as this concept breaks entirely new ground. And when you discover something new, you inherit the right, or difficulty, in naming it. It conquers new space. (Pardon the pun.)

YET, it'd still be a generational ship because of the time spent on voyage. You'd have to employ cryo, or possibly no one left to pilot the ship.

I suppose it could be recoined as a "Hyper capable generational cryo survey ship." *shrugs*

The idea of a generation ship is about a century old, and has long had an accepted definition; specifically, a ship where different generations start and finish the journey. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_ship
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleeper_ship

Oh come on crewdude. The meaning of language, concepts and phrases changes over time as a function of the evolution of a non-static entity — such that is language. That's why etymology is a "thing." It's called progress. And these fleeting things as words, concepts and phrases reflects advancements and new paradigms and ways to look at things.

It was a brassiere in my mom's day. A bra in my sister's day and a bustiere in my niece's. To reflect changing attitudes, in conception, use and design.

Old terminology has to change to reflect the advancements in the tech which advances the scope.

cthia wrote:
Old terminology has to change to reflect the advancements in the tech which advances the scope.

Maybe, but for now, you'd better be specific in what you mean, because most people use the definitions as linked by crewdude.

cthia wrote:

crewdude48 wrote:

The idea of a generation ship is about a century old, and has long had an accepted definition; specifically, a ship where different generations start and finish the journey. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_ship
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleeper_ship

Oh come on crewdude. The meaning of language, concepts and phrases changes over time as a function of the evolution of a non-static entity — such that is language. That's why etymology is a "thing." It's called progress. And these fleeting things as words, concepts and phrases reflects advancements and new paradigms and ways to look at things.

It was a brassiere in my mom's day. A bra in my sister's day and a bustiere in my niece's. To reflect changing attitudes, in conception, use and design.

Old terminology has to change to reflect the advancements in the tech which advances the scope.[/quote]Meanings domvhange, but only when subject to widespread "misuse" in society - see the inversion of the meaning of awful since Victorian times.

But we've no evidence in the books that Honorverse people have changed the meaning of generation ship. They seem to refer to them as just colony ships, or interstellar colony ships (see HotQ and Beginnings). So it seems you're the only one redefining generation ship as any colony ship - whether using cryo or actual generations.

Also your example seems incorrect; yes the shortened version "bra" has basically replaced the full name "brassiere". But a bustiere was, and remains, a distinctly separate thing from a bra - despite serving an overlapping function. (Kind of like calling a restraint bar I a rollercoaster a seatbelt because both keep you in place)

Sure - but a generation-sleeper ship would entail keeping thousands of people in cryo for centuries or even millennia, pulling them out to breed and educate a new generation before they die and returning the new generation to cryo for another long sleep before repeating the cycle.

That's only applicable if the cryo technology involved isn't 100% stasis. Otherwise, the generation aboard the ship is perfectly preserved until they reach their destination and thus has no need to replenish their population en-route.

But hyper speeds makes this unnecessary. Galaxy is a hundred thousand light years across and a merchie in the delta band can cover ~1,000 light years per year. This means it'd only take a hundred years to cross from one side to the other - only one year of physical aging assuming 100:1 cryo. Easy peasy. Maybe it'd be necessary for intergalactic colonisation, but the Honorverse is a long way from that.

I have trouble believing colonists would voluntarily sign up for a generation-sleeper voyage. One or the other, sure - but committing entire generations to waste their lives sleeping quietly in cryo beds? It's a bit too Matrix.

cthia wrote:Oh come on crewdude. The meaning of language, concepts and phrases changes over time as a function of the evolution of a non-static entity — such that is language. That's why etymology is a "thing." It's called progress. And these fleeting things as words, concepts and phrases reflects advancements and new paradigms and ways to look at things.

It was a brassiere in my mom's day. A bra in my sister's day and a bustiere in my niece's. To reflect changing attitudes, in conception, use and design.

Old terminology has to change to reflect the advancements in the tech which advances the scope.

The purpose of language is to facilitate communication. If changing a definition improves communication, then it happens. The definition you are trying to change inhibits communication, making you point less clear. A generation ship is something different than a long duration cryo ship, calling them both generation ships is languageing badly.