Attacking and Defending Gorath Bay==Possible Spoilers==

n7axw wrote:Do all those brown areas represent shallows underwater, thus representing a danger of grounding for ships whose draw is too deep?

The thing that impresses me as I look at the map is how many places there are to emplace shore batteries for defense to make an attackers job very difficult, If Dohlar had access to Charisian style artillery, the job of getting in there could get really dicey. In fact with the artillery the Dohlarians do have, things could get interesting enough.

Don

-

Duckk wrote: Correct

In which case, do the ICN need to go into Gorath Bay at least in the first place? It makes just as nice a bottle as it does a trap. Why not blockade the Bay, at the Zhulyet Channel if possible, then go devastate everything moving on Hankey Sound and Salthar Bay? If there are enough hulls available, do so in the Gulf of Tanshar and the Bay of Bess as well. Eventually Clyntahn or someone is going to make the RDN come out into open water and play.

Now surely you don't expect me to answer that?

Duckk wrote:Now surely you don't expect me to answer that?

A guy can always hope!

Were I Cayleb, I'd figure out some way to be on one of those Haraalds. He's been so good for so long now, it's time, as far as he's concerned, to be where the action is.

tootall wrote:Were I Cayleb, I'd figure out some way to be on one of those Haraalds. He's been so good for so long now, it's time, as far as he's concerned, to be where the action is.

I agree. Having Cayleb and 3 Haraald's to overawe those Dohlar politicos may well save lives. It's not that Cayleb wants to be in the midst of risky activity, he is trying to save lives! If he offers terms, everyone knows they will be adhered to. Getting to Dohlar allows his to touch base with his troops along the way.

At this point Siddermark is pretty much set to continue cooperating with local officials comfortable enough to work out exceptions to allied policy by themselves. Getting a treaty with Dohlar is more important. Getting a treaty with Dohlar without destroying future relations and yet extracting a cost is something Cayleb is best positioned to achieve.

Peter2 wrote:

Duckk wrote:The scale is in miles.

Wow. Liverpool was the port in the UK through which ca. 80% of England's shipping trade passed between about 1936 and 1956 (maybe longer), and during this time (IIRC) the docks and wharves extended for roughly 18 miles. What on Earth does Dohlar need 30+ miles of docks for? Especially considering that their ships are massively smaller!
.

I passed through it in 1957. An acquaintance of mine passed through it a year earlier and stayed at George Harrison's mum's house.

Duckk wrote:The scale is in miles.

Umm according to this small listing https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-avera ... n-carriage your telling me that the docks of Gorath stretch further than a horse drawn cart could travel in a day? That goods delivered to a dock on one end of the piers or another would take over a day to get through town to someplace on the other side. And that assumes no cross traffic impeding or slowing travel. That this town, which is larger than any 1700's or even 1800's seaport city I'm aware of supportable by the technology level given in the books?
I realize you have a really good channel straight to the maestro himself, but are you really sure the scale is miles and not tenths of a mile.
Cause I got to tell you that a town the size you describe would be an unimaginable nightmare to administer, run or operate a business in. It quite literally would be a town where one end of it would have no idea what was happening at the other on any given day. I can't even see how you could get water or food to any significant portion of it on any kind of reliable basis. It will take forever to subdue simply because you'd take hours just to steam up and down it's waterfront shelling things, even with no opposition at all.
Heck the distance from Baltimore to Washington DC is 38 miles or so. Your telling me that the waterfront of Gorath stretches almost that far? OK, ok I'll suspend my disbelief but this is stretching it a mite. That towns gonna need a heck of a metro system someday though.

Larry

I don't recall Duckk telling you that. In fact, I'm pretty sure that what you quote is exactly what he said.

IOW, what evidence is there that just because the map shows shoreline every foot of that shoreline is covered in docks? Or buildings of any sort? Or is even accessible without being winched down a cliff?

Rivers fork like that for a reason. Given that this isn't one of Safehold's, or even Dohlar's longer rivers, either it's carrying a whale of a lot of water down out of the mountains into a very soggy delta - making Gorath the Venice of Safehold, probably - or there's something, probably a honking big rock, sitting between the arms. Unfortunately, it's obvious that the shoreline is just sketched in, so there's nothing to provide any clues as to which is more likely. Nonetheless, I'd not be at all surprised to learn that there's a good deal of undeveloped territory inside that brown splotch. Which, you'll note, is not actually labeled 'Gorath', despite the careful identification of features around it.

Larry wrote:

Duckk wrote:The scale is in miles.

Umm according to this small listing https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-avera ... n-carriage your telling me that the docks of Gorath stretch further than a horse drawn cart could travel in a day? That goods delivered to a dock on one end of the piers or another would take over a day to get through town to someplace on the other side. And that assumes no cross traffic impeding or slowing travel. That this town, which is larger than any 1700's or even 1800's seaport city I'm aware of supportable by the technology level given in the books?
I realize you have a really good channel straight to the maestro himself, but are you really sure the scale is miles and not tenths of a mile.
Cause I got to tell you that a town the size you describe would be an unimaginable nightmare to administer, run or operate a business in. It quite literally would be a town where one end of it would have no idea what was happening at the other on any given day. I can't even see how you could get water or food to any significant portion of it on any kind of reliable basis. It will take forever to subdue simply because you'd take hours just to steam up and down it's waterfront shelling things, even with no opposition at all.
Heck the distance from Baltimore to Washington DC is 38 miles or so. Your telling me that the waterfront of Gorath stretches almost that far? OK, ok I'll suspend my disbelief but this is stretching it a mite. That towns gonna need a heck of a metro system someday though.

Larry

Randomiser wrote:

n7axw wrote:Do all those brown areas represent shallows underwater, thus representing a danger of grounding for ships whose draw is too deep?

The thing that impresses me as I look at the map is how many places there are to emplace shore batteries for defense to make an attackers job very difficult, If Dohlar had access to Charisian style artillery, the job of getting in there could get really dicey. In fact with the artillery the Dohlarians do have, things could get interesting enough.

Don

-

Duckk wrote: Correct

In which case, do the ICN need to go into Gorath Bay at least in the first place? It makes just as nice a bottle as it does a trap. Why not blockade the Bay, at the Zhulyet Channel if possible, then go devastate everything moving on Hankey Sound and Salthar Bay? If there are enough hulls available, do so in the Gulf of Tanshar and the Bay of Bess as well. Eventually Clyntahn or someone is going to make the RDN come out into open water and play.

They are going to need go occupy Gorath at least temporarily. The point is ultimately about getting Dohlar out of the war.

There might be a way of doing that without engaging Goath's defenses, particularly if Rycthar collapses.

I suspect that Clyntahn is becoming less relavant all the time. I think his power to enforce his will is fading...

Don

-

If the ICN deploys the KHVIIs in the Gulf of Dohlar, they cannot allow circumstances to suggest those ships can be fended off with anything currently available to Dohlar or the other jihadi nations. That means the Haraalds have to steam in to Gorath and take it in overwhelming fashion. So overwhelmingly that Dohlar quits the jihad and hopefully South Harchong also begins to see reason.

If it appears that a sufficiently well protected port city is enough to defeat those ships, all the jihadi nations will have more hope. Hope translates to stronger defense and more lives lost on both sides. Using the Haraalds in a decisive fashion is preferable. Heck, the ICN must use those ships or see their utility as moral killers diminish.