"Obsolete SDs" Waste not...

How long does it take to learn something from scratch? Hours, days, etc. How long does it take to learn an addendum to what you just learned.... A very short time in comparison.

You have to learn to crawl and walk before running. You need hardware and start developing doctrine and INSTITUSTIONs so when the fur fly's you are not making it up as you go along. Also for psychological reasons. You need actual hardware to look forward to implementing and using. Doesn't matter how old it is. One needs to feel they are making a difference. That way when one gets modern hardware, they can actually USE IT as they have the built in confidence in their commanders, in themselves, and in their doctrine.

Changing equipment is a very short learning curve. Creating institutions take a long time and the sooner you start with whatever equipment you can scrounge up, the better off you will be. Pretty soon you are the Japanese giving the Russians a bloody nose and cutting off their legs in 1904/5

The E wrote:

Sigs wrote:Put yourself in the shoes of the GA leadership, your nation is a target of centuries old conspiracy and suddenly you discover that there is a second part to the plan. You don't know what the RF is supposed to do but you know they are meant to replace the League at least in part. If the GA want's to survive I would in their shoes hammer the RF as hard as I can, as fast as I can and in the order that I can with as little collateral damage as possible. The GA hammering a dozen or even two dozen systems will not cause a thousand other systems to want revenge because those systems will be far from the conflict and having problems of their own.

And to the outside world, this looks a lot like, say, the accusation that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction. The other star nations around won't want revenge, they'll want protection from this Grand Alliance that will use the pretext of collaborating with this Mesan Alignment they keep crying about as a reason to hammer other star nations into dust.

Maybe so... in fact you might be 100% correct how it would look but does it matter how it looks? If your citizens are in danger would you consider how an action looked or how to mitigate the danger?

If the RF is meant to unite 100,200 or even 1,000 systems into one nation after the League's collapse what should the GA do once they discover this? Allow that many core systems to unite under an entity that was created by the MA and has caused death and destruction to anyone in their path? Allowing the RF to form a nation with a high concentration of core and shell worlds would be so counter productive especially when they don't know the end game.

jtg452 wrote:I don't see the logic of using them as training platforms.

That makes as much sense to me as training new auto mechanics on a fleet of 1973 Ford Pintos because you found a bone yard full of them or setting up a Computer Lit class using a warehouse full of Apple II's.

If you are going to train from scratch, then the best way to do it is to train on the system that's going to be used. Otherwise, you are just going to have to retrain once they get out of the classroom and into the real world.

And if you had a choice to train those mechanics for 3 years and then retrain them once the new vehicles arrive or waste 3 years and start from scratch in 3 years what would you choose?


It is about experience, training, confidence etc... three years of training can't hurt especially when the SLN ships are not obsolete themselves, their weapons and sensors might be but the ships themselves likely use the same basic technology that the GA uses.


We are not comparing a WW1 destroyer to a modern Destroyer, the comparison would be two relatively modern destroyers. One has state of the art weapons while the other might have obsolete weapons and sensors but the ships themselves wont be that different.

Theemile wrote:

jtg452 wrote:I don't see the logic of using them as training platforms.

That makes as much sense to me as training new auto mechanics on a fleet of 1973 Ford Pintos because you found a bone yard full of them or setting up a Computer Lit class using a warehouse full of Apple II's.

If you are going to train from scratch, then the best way to do it is to train on the system that's going to be used. Otherwise, you are just going to have to retrain once they get out of the classroom and into the real world.

I asked him before why the GA wouldn't use the Sphinx SDs in storage for that purpose, but he ignored me.

Or you didn't read the reply at the bottom of page 19...

Jonathan_S wrote:

Relax wrote:Are you born knowing how to run, jump, dribble, and shoot a basketball? No. You start by crawling, pullups, stumbling, walking, running. Then you see your slightly older sisters/brothers skipping, jumping, dribbling, and shooting a basketball and you decide to learn how to do that as well. Is there some magic beans that makes this all possible. Actually yes, there is. Your own willpower.

You don't start at the finish line. You do not start by creating a modern advanced navy from scratch. You have to crawl first. Which means starting at the bottom. The bottom is scrounging, maybe stealing and copying SLN tech. No one from the MALIGN, or Haven sector is going to change your diapers for you. They might sell you diapers, but they sure as heck won't be changing them. Since they are not changing your diapers, you might forget to change your diaper and get a rash. But, you will learn far faster by doing it yourself than having someone doing it for you.

OtJT is the fastest way to learn ANY subject. Anyone saying otherwise, is nothing but an pampered fool.

I'd tend to agree if you're talking about OTJT through something like an apprenticeship - where a knowledgeable person is working with you or at least checking your work frequently to correct mistakes or missed steps.

But on a complicated system dumping it in the trainee's lap along with a vague "I'm sure the manuals are on its computer system somewhere" seems like a horribly inefficient way to learn and quite possibly one likely to damage the ships or crew.
I got the impression that Sigs was advocating something much closer to this later scenario...

There would be a training cadre on board, they would get as much 1 on 1 or as close to it as they can with the candidates. We are not talking about a situation where you have plenty of time to build up and train a fleet, we are talking about newly independent systems needing to build as strong a defence as they can as quickly as they can.

If that means 6 apprentice to one journeyman then so be it. The GA does not have the manpower or resources to give 1 on 1 training to a hundred systems... they can but then they would be able to field 10 LAC's for the next decade.





What is the alternative you would provide that would allow those systems to field a squadron or two of SD's within a decade?

MaxxQ wrote:When I was in the Air Force, I was a bomb loader on F-111s (D and F models) for seven years. About 5 years in, I tested for promotion to Staff Sergeant. In the testing process, some of the questions pertained to loading bombs (and or guns, in some cases) on B-52s, B-1s, F-4s, F-16s, F-15s, and A-10s. This also included electronics questions, since we also have to test weapons delivery electronics in the process of loading.

I never did make SSGT, because all I had ever worked on were the 'Varks, and I missed many of the questions regarding other aircraft weapons systems. Never had the training. Had I ever gone on to work on a different aircraft, then I would have gotten the training, and it would have taken another 3-6 months (the same amount of time to be trained on the F-111 - and there were differences between the F model and the D model that I had to learn when I changed bases).

The point is that even though all the aircraft listed above did similar things (drop bombs, shoot rotary cannon, etc.), the maintenance and procedures for actually doing the job on the different "classes" of aircraft were vastly different, even on aircraft from similar time periods (F-111, F-4, B-52). So, just because one has had training on one type of thing, it doesn't always follow that it would be easy to switch to a similar, but different type of the same thing.

I bet it would have been much easier for you to get trained to do the same job on a new aircraft than for me to learn that job in the new aircraft from scratch. The point is that it would be easier to retrain someone to do a new aircraft than to train someone from scratch.

Weird Harold wrote:
That is really the key. You're plotting based on what the readers know. What the GA knows is that the Renaissance Factor is espousing that same ideals that Manticore and Haven have espoused all along.

And what happens when it comes out that the beloved RF is actually a front for the MA? They can present whatever ideals they want but when it comes down to it what the GA will see once they get some evidence is that the RF was organized by the MA... you know the same organization that started this whole mess.

Weird Harold wrote:Before the GA can act against the RF, they have to:

a) discover what the readers already know

What they need to discover is that the RF exists and it's link to the MA. Once they grab onto one string they can eventually unravel the whole organization.

Weird Harold wrote:b) provide verifiable evidence that the RF is out to dominate human space that those who already think the GA needs a freighter load of tinfoil hats because they believe this mythical "Mesan Alignment" is out to get them.

Why would that matter? Do you actually think the GA would waste time to prove to the Galaxy that the MA exists and the RF is aligned with the MA? They may do it while also acting on the intelligence but they wont try to persuade everyone and hold of on the action.

There is the time factor, it might take you 5,6,10 or 20 years to gather the evidence, in which time the RF now has 100 core and shell systems with 5 times the industry of the GA. They are stronger than the GA and can let their true intentions out.

Weird Harold wrote:c) prove that the anti-slavery, and support of the Cherwell Convention and Beowulf Code are a total sham to lull everyone into complacency. They will need to prove that to the citizens of the RF, since the evil plot is known only to a very select few leaders of the twelve core RF systems.

They probably will have to do that, once they control the orbitals.

Weird Harold wrote:Just how effective is the Arab's antisemitism in turning world opinion against Israel? How much more difficult is accusing the US government of being controlled by the Illuminati or Space Lizards in drumming up acceptance of a genocidal war against the US? (You are advocating a genocidal war against anyone with MAlign Genetics, are you not?)

Not at all, I never suggested anything of the sort. You hit them hard and you hit them fast. There are a whole lot of options between do nothing and genocide. For some reason you see it as if someone decides to do something they have to commit genocide. Take out what you must, but keep the collateral damage to a minimum. Even if every single citizen in those 12 systems was in on it, killing 30 or 60 or 90 billion people is a bit of an over reaction.

Weird Harold wrote:What little we do know about the RF is that they are to prevent the image of benevolent protectors who espouse all the ideals the GA supports. It is going to take years for them to show their true colors in a way that will turn popular opinion against them.

And you are suggesting that the GA do nothing for those years other than try to expose them for who they really are. Spend years or decades only to let them grow too strong to do anything about it. If they don't take out the threat as soon as the connection is proven and when there are only 12 systems they might have to do it when there are 100 systems, or 1,000 systems.

Sigs wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:b) provide verifiable evidence that the RF is out to dominate human space that those who already think the GA needs a freighter load of tinfoil hats because they believe this mythical "Mesan Alignment" is out to get them.

Why would that matter? Do you actually think the GA would waste time to prove to the Galaxy that the MA exists and the RF is aligned with the MA? They may do it while also acting on the intelligence but they wont try to persuade everyone and hold of on the action.

You really can't see the result of giving every human occupied system a reason to fear you and unite against you?

You're concerned that the Renaissance Factor will grow to a hundred systems or more before showing their true colors, yet are totally unconcerned about most of human occupied space uniting against what would be perceived as a rabid, egotistical interstellar bully?

The GA has no choice but to accept the RF at face value until they do something that is obvious to the rest of human occupied space as a threat. At that time, the roles would be reversed, and the GA would have hundreds or thousands of potential allies against the RF instead of facing those hundred and thousands of systems as enemies supporting the RF.

Sigs wrote:

Theemile wrote:
I asked him before why the GA wouldn't use the Sphinx SDs in storage for that purpose, but he ignored me.

Or you didn't read the reply at the bottom of page 19...

Sorry Sigs, You're right, I missed your response.

Since at last telling, the RMN was placing all the old SDs not required into storage to free crews for the Python lump, and later ships, and we know the ships were not stored at the stations to free space for repairs and builds, there should be plenty (~150 in Manty hands alone) available if training SDs are required. All are modern as of 1915 or later, so should be very current for hardware training.

Theemile wrote:

Sigs wrote:

Or you didn't read the reply at the bottom of page 19...

Sorry Sigs, You're right, I missed your response.

Since at last telling, the RMN was placing all the old SDs not required into storage to free crews for the Python lump, and later ships, and we know the ships were not stored at the stations to free space for repairs and builds, there should be plenty (~150 in Manty hands alone) available if training SDs are required. All are modern as of 1915 or later, so should be very current for hardware training.

If they are available that is great. But here are some of my questions, would they be giving too much of the technological advantage away... is there a way it could backfire.

And more importantly, do those SD's actually have the room to accommodate a training cadre AND trainees? If your ships are so automated that the space for people is severely limited I would say they would be more of a second stage training. The ex-SLN ships are not obsolete in their basic technology, so using them to train as many people as you can to fly them and fix them.