"Obsolete SDs" Waste not...

Jonathan_S wrote:I disagree for a couple of reasons.
One, a old 6000 man SD has way more low level 'grunt work' positions than a 900 man modern SD(P) - but almost no additional members in the command and upper departement levels. It doesn't seem (to me) to do much good to have 4 times the basic enginerring techs trained if you've only got the same number of engineering chiefs, or tactical officers, or XOs, or Captains. You end up with too few command crews for the mass of basic spacers you ran through OTJ training.

Second it presumes that hands on training on ex-SLN tech is good, or at least adequate, training for the non-obsolete ships the crews will be transferred to after training. The Scienists class are so obsolete I think that's a very risky assumption - certainly for anybody whose future navy will have access to Manticoran naval tech (even Mantie-lite)
Taking a real work example, before the Ticonderoga-class cruiser the previous non-nuclear design for the USN was the Belknap-class which has a noticeably higher manning 27 officers, 450 enlisted vs 33 officers and approx. 360 enlisted. But you couldn't take most people trained on a Belcamp and transfer them to a Ticonderoga without sending them back to various tech schools to be largely retrained - the systems are too different and therefore so is how you operated, maintain, and troubleshoot them.

I just doubt that these ex-SLN SDs are even good for training ships, no matter how many people it takes to run them. You'd be better off with ground schools and simulators designed to train you on the ships (and tech) you'd actually be using later - very little of a spacer's training is shipboard (unless you count the process, during their first real assigned post training, where the more experienced crews knock away some of the book learning and replacing it with how things really work in the fleet.

As long as you end up with 4X command staff, 4X engineering, 4X weapons manning etc... you should be fine. No the idea is that you use 4 separate crew's and work on getting potential officers from there. The main command crew would be Manticoran/Havenite/Grayson etc... and under them you would have 4 separate schools.

To me, the ships are there and provide some use but if it proves that they are in fact useless or next to useless then go down the list. Are there Havenite/Manticoran SD's, DN's or BB's that can fit the bill? If so then go ahead. If no other alternative is available I would, if I were in the position of a newly independent government be taking anything I can get to provide for my own defence, if that means a year or two on outdated equipment followed by another year of workup on modern equipment I would say it's better than waiting the two or 3 years and starting from scratch. My point here is that the ships are there, and if a use can be had from them then by all means use them but ultimately every or at least a vast majority of core and shell system will be building up their military power and quickly so it would be better for the GA to have some oversight and control over those emerging militaries rather than have no oversight and influence and end up being surprised just like the SLN was.

Weird Harold wrote:
What, beyondd wishful thinking, makes you think that Manticore/GA is going to identify the Renaissance Factor as the MAlign reincarnated?

Every secret has a shelf life, eventually something will come out and/or a pattern will emerge. When the GA is hyper paranoid after learning that they were played by the MA for 6 centuries I highly doubt that they would leave any rock unturned. What do you think happens to the RF when the MA and its inner onion are destroyed? Even if the RF is never discovered, when the MA is destroyed, the RF will be of little consequence since all of those leaders will be fighting to build up their own little empire. When you have so many Alpha types in one organization and the leader dies, chances are every one of the Alpha types will be fighting to get the power. They will either be fighting each other or going out on their own and building empires through conquest or diplomacy.

Weird Harold wrote:The RF is positioned to appear as the antithesis of the MAlign and will be acting in essentially the same manner as dozens of other mutual defense pacts that are coalescing into multi-system star nations. By the time they become big enough and start working at cross-purposes to Manticore's interests, the Solarian League is going to be well into the legends phase and on its way to becoming myth. The question of what sort of defenses and Navy any given system is going to have will be long answered.

That is assuming that 1) the someone does not develop a conscience and spill the beans, 2)the MA didn't miss something in their hasty retreat or 3)the RF survives the destruction of the MA.

Weird Harold wrote:There is no reason to believe that the RF is anything more than it appears and even if Black Victor and "The most famous spy in the Universe" turn up the MAlign connection, convincing anyone else that the RF is evil is going to be a very rough challenge.

Who do they need to convince? They don't need to convince the League, all they need to convince is their own population witch would be pre disposed to believe that. At the end of the day, a dozen core/shell systems occupied by the GA out of a thousand or more isn't that big of a deal. And if anyone does have a problem, the GA has the big bad fleet so they wont be interested in doing anything about it. Most systems will be concentrating on survival which means building their fleets and corresponding industries while at the same time building up their foreign relations( alliances with neighbours, mutual defence treaties with neighbours and such with the GA). Therefore they wont have the time, energy or interest to worry about a dozen systems that may or may not have pissed off the GA enough to call for boots on the ground and a significant picket.

Sigs wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:There is no reason to believe that the RF is anything more than it appears and even if Black Victor and "The most famous spy in the Universe" turn up the MAlign connection, convincing anyone else that the RF is evil is going to be a very rough challenge.

Who do they need to convince? They don't need to convince the League, all they need to convince is their own population witch would be pre disposed to believe that. At the end of the day, a dozen core/shell systems occupied by the GA out of a thousand or more isn't that big of a deal.

Yes, it would be a "big deal."

Manticore and the GA can't afford to do anything that will scare the developing successor states into a revanchist policy. They may have a big and invincible military at the moment, but they will not always have that edge. They're already concerned about keeping the people they make implacable enemies of to a minimum. Without ironclad, public, independently verifiable evidence of the RF's evil intentions, they will trigger a "will i be next" fear in every successor state.

Sigs wrote:To me, the ships are there and provide some use but if it proves that they are in fact useless or next to useless then go down the list. Are there Havenite/Manticoran SD's, DN's or BB's that can fit the bill? If so then go ahead. If no other alternative is available I would, if I were in the position of a newly independent government be taking anything I can get to provide for my own defence, if that means a year or two on outdated equipment followed by another year of workup on modern equipment I would say it's better than waiting the two or 3 years and starting from scratch. My point here is that the ships are there, and if a use can be had from them then by all means use them but ultimately every or at least a vast majority of core and shell system will be building up their military power and quickly so it would be better for the GA to have some oversight and control over those emerging militaries rather than have no oversight and influence and end up being surprised just like the SLN was.

Why do you persist is believing these ships could provide useful training for Shell or Core systems before their own schools? 2 to three years before starting from scratch? Possibly, but unlikely. These ships are going to be of a size and tech that no-one is going to be using in new builds in under 5 years. Even League systems have a lot of labor saving tech they could implement, without getting anywhere near Manticore/Grayson levels of automation.

Systems without a current fleet either be conquered by someone with one or be using a lot of kludged together armed freighter and yacht conversions untill they can replace them with purpose built warships, likely of that system's own design.

Getting the captured SLN ships from Manticore space to the former SL system that wants them will take a significant amount of time, unlikely to be less than 1 year. Any SL systems cannot openly express interest in these ships before the formal breakup of the league, without being in revolt.

cthia hit upon an excellent idea for at least some of them:

Outfit a few as generational ships!
Hyper capable vessels equipped with cryo, extra reactor mass (possibly towed along in a barge-type hull by tractor like what was done with Masadan LACs), and so forth, and sent out to explore WAY beyond the range of regular ships!

They could use the wormholes, then jump off from places such as Basilisk and Matapan into the unknown.

Castenea wrote:Why do you persist is believing these ships could provide useful training for Shell or Core systems before their own schools? 2 to three years before starting from scratch? Possibly, but unlikely.

I believe that they can provide useful training because they are functioning SD's and they have living facilities for 6,000 or more people. This allows a small cadre of instructors to train a relatively large group of people and teach them in the environment they can be expected to thrive in.

As for training crew's in 2-3 years? It is enough to get you adequately trained if inexperienced crew's as long as you start of with highly motivated and technologically literate individuals. There are countless examples where a nation started with little to no military of it's own or it's military was decimated and they rebuild it. These examples run from antiquity all the way to the present. If you know that the safety and independence of your home depends on building a professional military as quickly as possible well basically it becomes possible. Starting with 2-4 SD's fully crewed, a small number of screen also fully crewed and some LAC's. Add the fact that the GA would be assisting with setting up logistics and infrastructure and the training schools and academies and it is possible. The idea is to give them a core to start with, and those systems that prove loyal and trustworthy can be integrated into the GA's naval academies, training schools and fleets to give them more in-depth training and operational experience.

Castenea wrote: These ships are going to be of a size and tech that no-one is going to be using in new builds in under 5 years.

Did Manticore, Grayson and Haven completely and utterly change the mechanics of space travel that humanity has used for hundreds of years? Are the ex-SLN ships that different technologically from the GA's ships if we discount weapons and sensors? The basic technology on those ships is likely of the same quality or slightly worse than that on GA ships and likely it will remain so for the new constructions. The weapons, sensors and new compensators might be slightly to significantly better than the SLN version but the ships themselves are likely similar in construction to a Manticoran vessel minus the automation and more warm bodies in support.

Castenea wrote: Even League systems have a lot of labor saving tech they could implement, without getting anywhere near Manticore/Grayson levels of automation.

And those ships remain training platforms until such a time as the GA supplies the navies that operate them with modern SD's and screen and their schools are functioning.

Castenea wrote:Systems without a current fleet either be conquered by someone with one or be using a lot of kludged together armed freighter and yacht conversions untill they can replace them with purpose built warships, likely of that system's own design.

Yes, but it is in the best interest of the GA to keep as many of the empire builders as they can from assembling major empires. They have the technological edge now but in 40 years they may not and allowing nations of 40,50 or 100 core and shell systems means they might become a target once their edge is gone.

Castenea wrote:Getting the captured SLN ships from Manticore space to the former SL system that wants them will take a significant amount of time, unlikely to be less than 1 year. Any SL systems cannot openly express interest in these ships before the formal breakup of the league, without being in revolt.

You say that like anyone cares. Those systems don't and wont care about being in open revolt because they will see the writing on the wall and will jump ship. As soon as those systems ask for assistance, the GA give them the training cadre, the ships and starts helping them build up their logistics and infrastructure. So 2-3 years from them getting the ships till operating ships of their own wont be too hard.

Weird Harold wrote:
Yes, it would be a "big deal."

Manticore and the GA can't afford to do anything that will scare the developing successor states into a revanchist policy. They may have a big and invincible military at the moment, but they will not always have that edge. They're already concerned about keeping the people they make implacable enemies of to a minimum. Without ironclad, public, independently verifiable evidence of the RF's evil intentions, they will trigger a "will i be next" fear in every successor state.

They don't need any of that. The MA attacked Manticore and Grayson, they killed millions of people and before this is over maybe even billions. What we know of the RF is so incomplete that it is laughable and what we as the reader know and what the GA knows would be two different things. None of the GA powers will risk the safety of their citizens and the SEM has proven that it refuses to backdown from a threat no matter who the threat is so them walking on eggshells when they find out the RF exists is unlikely at best.

We don't know what the ultimate goals of the RF are. What the MA plans to use the RF to accomplish, we may have scraps and we may suspect but we know nothing concrete. If the GA gets wind of the RF they will not wonder what to do, they will wonder what size hammer to use.

Put yourself in the shoes of the GA leadership, your nation is a target of centuries old conspiracy and suddenly you discover that there is a second part to the plan. You don't know what the RF is supposed to do but you know they are meant to replace the League at least in part. If the GA want's to survive I would in their shoes hammer the RF as hard as I can, as fast as I can and in the order that I can with as little collateral damage as possible. The GA hammering a dozen or even two dozen systems will not cause a thousand other systems to want revenge because those systems will be far from the conflict and having problems of their own.

Sigs wrote:...What we know of the RF is so incomplete that it is laughable and what we as the reader know and what the GA knows would be two different things. ...

That is really the key. You're plotting based on what the readers know. What the GA knows is that the Renaissance Factor is espousing that same ideals that Manticore and Haven have espoused all along.

Before the GA can act against the RF, they have to:

a) discover what the readers already know

b) provide verifiable evidence that the RF is out to dominate human space that those who already think the GA needs a freighter load of tinfoil hats because they believe this mythical "Mesan Alignment" is out to get them.

c) prove that the anti-slavery, and support of the Cherwell Convention and Beowulf Code are a total sham to lull everyone into complacency. They will need to prove that to the citizens of the RF, since the evil plot is known only to a very select few leaders of the twelve core RF systems.

Just how effective is the Arab's antisemitism in turning world opinion against Israel? How much more difficult is accusing the US government of being controlled by the Illuminati or Space Lizards in drumming up acceptance of a genocidal war against the US? (You are advocating a genocidal war against anyone with MAlign Genetics, are you not?)

What little we do know about the RF is that they are to prevent the image of benevolent protectors who espouse all the ideals the GA supports. It is going to take years for them to show their true colors in a way that will turn popular opinion against them.

Are you born knowing how to run, jump, dribble, and shoot a basketball? No. You start by crawling, pullups, stumbling, walking, running. Then you see your slightly older sisters/brothers skipping, jumping, dribbling, and shooting a basketball and you decide to learn how to do that as well. Is there some magic beans that makes this all possible. Actually yes, there is. Your own willpower.

You don't start at the finish line. You do not start by creating a modern advanced navy from scratch. You have to crawl first. Which means starting at the bottom. The bottom is scrounging, maybe stealing and copying SLN tech. No one from the MALIGN, or Haven sector is going to change your diapers for you. They might sell you diapers, but they sure as heck won't be changing them. Since they are not changing your diapers, you might forget to change your diaper and get a rash. But, you will learn far faster by doing it yourself than having someone doing it for you.

OtJT is the fastest way to learn ANY subject. Anyone saying otherwise, is nothing but an pampered fool.

Sigs wrote:Put yourself in the shoes of the GA leadership, your nation is a target of centuries old conspiracy and suddenly you discover that there is a second part to the plan. You don't know what the RF is supposed to do but you know they are meant to replace the League at least in part. If the GA want's to survive I would in their shoes hammer the RF as hard as I can, as fast as I can and in the order that I can with as little collateral damage as possible. The GA hammering a dozen or even two dozen systems will not cause a thousand other systems to want revenge because those systems will be far from the conflict and having problems of their own.

And to the outside world, this looks a lot like, say, the accusation that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction. The other star nations around won't want revenge, they'll want protection from this Grand Alliance that will use the pretext of collaborating with this Mesan Alignment they keep crying about as a reason to hammer other star nations into dust.