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Solarian League Naval Strenght versus SLN Strength

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Re: Solarian League Naval Strenght versus SLN Strength
Post by HungryKing   » Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:50 am

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Eh, the scientist comes out to a mid to third quarter 18th century pd design, and the Vega to an early 19th century design, at the latest. The SLN's latest new vessels, around 1905 pd were downright modern. Probably equivalent to the RMN's Victory class, if I had to guess.
As for what is in the reserve we know the following:
The SLN originally decided on DNs rather than SDs, for numeric and acceleration advantages, but later started to build SDs. They moved to majority SD construction, followed by a choice to use only SDs, which led to build only SDs, and having most of the DNs in the reserve being purged, with only the most recent ones being retained.
As for the timing of these events, they probably occured in the 18th century. The 1720 appearance of the IDCM, marks a point where designs built previous would eventually need major rebuilding, due to the need to fit them with CM tubes, probably. The 1750ish evolution of grav lenses marks another such point. PDLCs started appearing around 1780 but were a gradual thing, maybe. It was implied that autocannons could not deal with laserhead's predecessor's mature form (which means PDLCs on everything post 1820 at the latest).
As for the reserve, 2/3 with autocannon, but very few DNs remain. Given the SLN's refit and replacement rule of refitting the most out of date first, and of striking one of the oldest for each new ship, well it means that most of the reserve hasn't seen a yard for a century, or more.
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Re: Wallers (Spoiler/WAGing)
Post by Weird Harold   » Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:59 am

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lyonheart wrote:We don't know what the latest SLN SD classes are by name or size, but it isn't still the Scientist class, which might have ended production 40-50 years ago.

The Scientist class is much older, belonging to the early 19th century, initially equipped with autocannon [probably for 3-4 decades], and eventually replaced by the Vega series later in the 19th century that basically had an extra pair of missile tubes and the corresponding lasers and grasers in its broadside weapon decks; we also don't know if that slight extension added 100,000 or 200,000 tons to the SD's mass to bring it up to 6.9 or 7 M tons.


They may have changed the name and added a couple of missile tubes, but the SLN really only has different variants of a single class of SDs:

Mission of Honor
Chapter Twenty wrote:
There was an impressive uniformity among the superdreadnoughts, as well. All but seven of them were Scientist-class ships, and all seven of the others were members of the Vega class, which were basically only repeat Scientists with a couple of additional missile tubes in each broadside. By the standards of the prewar Royal Manticoran Navy, they weren't that bad a design, although the first of the Scientists had been built long enough ago that they'd still been equipped with projectile-firing point defense systems. At least all of these ships seemed to have been upgraded to laser clusters since, judging from the detailed passive scans Augustus Khumalo's Ghost Rider platforms had pulled in.


The SLN's basic design philosophy is "don't change what works." They consciously avoid any new designs that would make the rest of Battle Fleet (including the Reserve) obsolete. That means that the majority of their fleet is Scientist-class and everything newer is basically a shiny new Scientist with only incremental improvements.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Solarian League Naval Strenght versus SLN Strength
Post by Brigade XO   » Tue Sep 27, 2016 3:48 pm

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There is always a danger of committing to a truly new weapon system design if you feel you just have to maintain full compatablilty with your legacy systems. The problem is that until you can prove the new design is actualy going to work- both as promised and be effective (which are not the same thing)- the tendecy is to hold onto the old stuff.
One way of actualy getting some use/value out of the old stuff that is even just "old and worn" or you don't want to maintain in your inventory so you can get the newer, "better" stuff, is to sell it off to others. Hence the internatioal (or interstellar) armes market...big smile
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Re: Solarian League Naval Strenght versus SLN Strength
Post by munroburton   » Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:21 pm

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HungryKing wrote:Eh, the scientist comes out to a mid to third quarter 18th century pd design, and the Vega to an early 19th century design, at the latest. The SLN's latest new vessels, around 1905 pd were downright modern. Probably equivalent to the RMN's Victory class, if I had to guess.


My guess is the Scientist class dates from around 1820, with the Vega "update" coming into service around 1900. Based on the Ad Astra DN's 1880 refit when they replaced autocannon with laser cluster for point defense and the Manticore SD at 6.5MT in 1742.

The closest RMN design to the Scientist/Vega is probably the Gladiator DN. It's about the same mass, dates from roughly the middle of that era and skimped on missile launchers for a heavier energy battery. The Samothrace SDs are pretty close too, if slightly larger.

The RMN produced only five waller classes from ~1590-1857. Then Roger III was crowned and started preparing for war with Haven. That's a pattern the SLN itself probably set.
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Re: Solarian League Naval Strenght versus SLN Strength
Post by kzt   » Tue Sep 27, 2016 11:07 pm

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munroburton wrote:My guess is the Scientist class dates from around 1820, with the Vega "update" coming into service around 1900. Based on the Ad Astra DN's 1880 refit when they replaced autocannon with laser cluster for point defense and the Manticore SD at 6.5MT in 1742.

No, they mention it in the text. It was a 1700s design.
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Re: Solarian League Naval Strenght versus SLN Strength
Post by lyonheart   » Wed Sep 28, 2016 2:21 am

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Hi HungryKing,

"Very interesting".

Do you have textev?

I'd appreciate it very much.

Thanks, ahead of time.

L


HungryKing wrote:Eh, the scientist comes out to a mid to third quarter 18th century pd design, and the Vega to an early 19th century design, at the latest. The SLN's latest new vessels, around 1905 pd were downright modern. Probably equivalent to the RMN's Victory class, if I had to guess.
As for what is in the reserve we know the following:
The SLN originally decided on DNs rather than SDs, for numeric and acceleration advantages, but later started to build SDs. They moved to majority SD construction, followed by a choice to use only SDs, which led to build only SDs, and having most of the DNs in the reserve being purged, with only the most recent ones being retained.
As for the timing of these events, they probably occured in the 18th century. The 1720 appearance of the IDCM, marks a point where designs built previous would eventually need major rebuilding, due to the need to fit them with CM tubes, probably. The 1750ish evolution of grav lenses marks another such point. PDLCs started appearing around 1780 but were a gradual thing, maybe. It was implied that autocannons could not deal with laserhead's predecessor's mature form (which means PDLCs on everything post 1820 at the latest).
As for the reserve, 2/3 with autocannon, but very few DNs remain. Given the SLN's refit and replacement rule of refitting the most out of date first, and of striking one of the oldest for each new ship, well it means that most of the reserve hasn't seen a yard for a century, or more.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: Solarian League Naval Strenght versus SLN Strength
Post by lyonheart   » Wed Sep 28, 2016 2:24 am

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Hi KZT,

Always good to see your posts.

Do you have textev reference as well?

Evidently I need to brush up on a couple of things.

Thanks,

L


kzt wrote:
munroburton wrote:My guess is the Scientist class dates from around 1820, with the Vega "update" coming into service around 1900. Based on the Ad Astra DN's 1880 refit when they replaced autocannon with laser cluster for point defense and the Manticore SD at 6.5MT in 1742.

No, they mention it in the text. It was a 1700s design.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: Solarian League Naval Strenght versus SLN Strength
Post by lyonheart   » Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:02 am

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Hi MunroBurton,

If the peeps had only a couple hundred plus BB's means in the 1850's, then around 150+ more were built later, probably in part due to internal politics, which then could indeed be 'missile heavy' compared to most previous BB's, not just the PRHN.

Wonder if that will be in the 'House of Lies' next spring?

L


munroburton wrote:
lyonheart wrote:Hi MunroBurton,

That's an interesting idea, but 36 SD's totaling 200 million tons for a single transit means they average only 5.55 M tons each- pretty small SD's, smaller than the average RMN DN's at the beginning of the first war, even if only 4 were in the yards, they'd still be pretty small SD's.

Other posters have pointed out how unlikely Haven would ever risk the SL's ire by attacking a member.

The suggestion of going after just the wormhole has far more merit, since the peeps could always claim they got the idea from the SL, and the reduced fees and kickbacks would ensure the mandarins support for the legislaturists, but it also means the BSDF SD's could be much larger.

It's more likely the 36 figure is a long standing one [38-39 is more likely to keep 32 in 4 squadrons operational] and the BSDF is probably replacing the older ones on a one for one basis, especially given the revolutionary nature of the laserhead, but taking decades to complete.

Now the idea of the BSDF being a guard or relief force foe the SKM well before King Roger's build up seems quite possible given how close Beowulf and Manticore are in terms of intermarriage and trade etc.

Given the last peep BB's were "very missile heavy" according to the textev, I doubt Jayne's, given the many contradictions with the textev is correct, ie they were built rather later as some other textev implies, to take advantage of the laserhead; certainly RFC would have caught it if he'd had more time to peruse the text.

L


When I said Beowulf's wall was approximately equivalent to one maximum mass transit, I didn't mean to suggest they might be a reserve for Manticore. The idea is Beowulf had to maintain enough to counter other people's max-mass transits to guarantee its local security, in conjunction with the ponderous SLN's background presence.

As for the BBs, from HoS:
By the time the Navy began its expansion under King Roger III, the People’s Republic of Haven had over two hundred battleships already in commission; and Roger flatly refused to build a warship that was qualitatively inferior to anything Haven had in service at the time. The last of the RMN’s small battleship force was decommissioned in 1868, when sufficient dreadnoughts had been built to replace them.


The laserhead was invented in ~1800, but largely ineffective against large armoured targets until ~1860. Contact nukes were in use pretty much forever, using chemical rockets before impeller drives could be fitted to missiles.

Consequently, it does make sense the People's Republic would build a missile-heavy waller meant to smash cruiser squadrons at distance, before such vessels could close to effective energy range or even ram, given their intended opponents.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: Solarian League Naval Strenght versus SLN Strength
Post by Vince   » Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:58 am

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The only reference that I can find regarding the age of the SLN's Scientist and Vega classes is from:
Mission of Honor, Chapter 20 wrote:There was an impressive uniformity among the superdreadnoughts, as well. All but seven of them were Scientist-class ships, and all seven of the others were members of the Vega class, which were basically only repeat Scientists with a couple of additional missile tubes in each broadside. By the standards of the prewar Royal Manticoran Navy, they weren’t that bad a design, although the first of the Scientists had been built long enough ago that they’d still been equipped with projectile-firing point defense systems. At least all of these ships seemed to have been upgraded to laser clusters since, judging from the detailed passive scans Augustus Khumalo’s Ghost Rider platforms had pulled in. And it was painfully obvious that even now the Sollies didn’t begin to grasp just how capable—and stealthy—the Ghost Rider recon drones actually were. To be sure, the really close passes had been purely ballistic, with no active emissions to betray their presence, but even so they shouldn’t have been able to get in close enough to literally read ships’ names off their hulls without someone noticing something.
Italics are the author's, boldface is my emphasis.

Point defense using autocannon started to be replaced by PDLCs before the time the laser head missile came into use--the introduction of the laser head accelerated the process. Some information, including relevant systems and dates:
The Short Victorious War, Honor Harrington's Navy, Naval Weaponry wrote:In some navies, the lasers were backed by a last-ditch autocannon defense. The theory was simple: throw so many shells that they built a wall of metal in the missiles' paths. Given missiles' closing velocities, any hit could be counted on to vaporize them, but the development of laser heads made autocannon largely irrelevant. When a missile can attack from 20,000 or 30,000 kilometers, no last-ditch ballistic projectile can reach it in time.
In Fire Forged, An Introduction to Modern Starship Armor Design, Deep Space Warfare from 1246 to the Present: A Short History of the Threat wrote:The gods that govern arms races abhor imbalance, and the sidewall’s impenetrability did not last long. In 1298, research yielded the first practical sidewall penetrator.
***Snip***
Spacecraft designers responded with vigorous innovation in defensive measures. Early research in electromagnetic and gravitic deception and countermeasures renewed the importance of the ancient and archaically named art of “electronic” countermeasures. Navies turned to mass driver technology for point defense. The point defense autocannon found in some third rate navies today, and even on truly ancient reserve Battle Fleet vessels in the Solarian Navy, are direct descendents of weapons developed in this period as a response to the early contact nuke.
***Snip***
The defense was not at all idle during this period. Advances in gravitic deception technologies raced neck-and-neck with seeker improvements. Sidewall systems largely took the lead in thwarting penetrator improvements and improved materials and designs kept the defense almost in step as missile warheads grew. The pure fusion warhead might have had more disruptive consequences if the impeller drive countermissile had not appeared on scene in 1701. Essentially a smaller version of the shipkiller, this weapon destroyed incoming missiles by wedge to wedge interaction. This added a new depth to the missile defense problem which allowed nearby ships to defend each other cooperatively as never before. The countermissile dramatically reduced the effectiveness of shipkillers. This was followed some eighty years later by the widespread introduction of numerous small point defense laser weapons. The new active defenses ensured that even a weapon whose seeker was not decoyed by the target’s ECM would be stopped short of the sidewall. The point defense laser cluster created the final layer of light speed defense that resulted in the now familiar geometrically increased chance of the missile being destroyed in the last 50,000 to 60,000 km of its run. Hits against intact defenses became rare. This relegated the impeller drive missile to a counter sidewall role in which the best that could typically be achieved was a close aboard detonation of a multiple missile salvo to burn out sidewall generators and soften the target up for an energy range attack. Sidewall burning was in fact the end to which the largest pure fusion weapons were built.
***Snip***
By 1826, a state of the art RMN impeller drive nuclear armed missile could boast a standoff range of 8,000 to 10,000 kilometers in sidewall burning mode.
That same year, a small Solarian defense contractor, Aberu and Harmon, developed the unique combination of a state of the art grav lens array with a series of multiple submunitions carrying rods that emitted short wavelength X-ray laser light when exposed to the broadband X-ray pulse from a nuclear explosion.
***Snip***
Initially called a laser enhanced nuclear gravitically directed energy weapon (LENGDEW), the device quickly earned the handier title of “laser head.”
***Snip***
Strong Aberu family influence within the SLN and the lure of being first eventually won modest funding for a short series of live tests in 1833.
***Snip***
The tests proved embarrassing failures.
***Snip***
The resulting media attention brought word of the laser head briefly into the public eye where it came to the attention of Astral Energetics, Ltd. Sensing an opportunity, the company bought out Aberu and Harmon, collected all existing research materials, and began a long term incremental development program. Astral’s huge sales of gravitic and nuclear physics packages for military, mining, and scientific uses meant a steady flow of resources to their extensive project team located amidst the sprawling industry of the 70 Virginis system. Their work took over thirty years, but it produced the first complete laser-head-armed impeller-drive anti-ship missile system in 1866.
***Snip***
Convinced that the weapon was nothing more than a passing novelty, the SLN rejected the best efforts of Astral’s sales department and lobbyists for years. Desperate, Astral eventually began advertising the weapon for export. The Imperial Andermani Navy was their first official buyer in early 1872. Successful, though infrequent, use of laser heads against pirates in Silesia over the ensuing decade encouraged the People’s Republic to begin acquiring laser heads and the capability to produce them in the early 1880s in the midst of its forcible expansion into much of the Haven sector.
The Star Kingdom of Manticore pursued an independent path to laser head armament. Always admirably well informed on galaxy-wide research trends due to command of the Manticore Wormhole Junction, the Bureau of Weapons (BuWeaps) presumably learned of the laser head concept when it first became public knowledge in the late 1830s. Thus began a low-level development effort which confirmed the validity of the basic physics without developing a functional weapon. Even Manticore’s vaunted research and development establishment struggled with the complex problems of gravitic technology miniaturization, timing, and nuclear processes for many years. Manticoran work paid off in 1870 with the introduction of their first laser head capable missile—the Mark-19 capital ship missile.
The advent of the laser-head armed impeller drive missile put a premium on keeping enemy missiles far away from one’s ships and forced defensive system designers to make dramatic improvements in countermissiles, point defense laser clusters, gravitic sidewall strength, and armor.
Boldface and underlined text is my emphasis.

Conclusions about the age range of the Scientists and Vegas:

The earliest SLN Scientist-class SDs predated the use of PDLCs and used autocannon point defense, while the later ones built (plus any later refitted and modernized) used PDLCs instead of autocannon.

Since "the widespread introduction of numerous small point defense laser weapons" occurred (approximately) in 1781, the earlier builds of Scientists with autocannon point defense occurred before ~ 1781, with the later builds of Scientists starting on or after ~ 1781 used point defense laser clusters instead.

SLN Ships undergoing refits and upgrades after 1781, and especially after 1872 when the laser head was successfully used, would have their autocannon point defense replaced by PDLCs.

The Vega was a repeat of the Scientist, with some additional missile tubes. Most likely, the design entered production after the last of the Scientists ordered were starting construction.
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History does not repeat itself so much as it echoes.
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