ATST Snippet #6 (I think)

n7axw wrote:
I don't see Dohlar getting rockets... Those will be used by the Harchongians and the AOG... I am also skeptical of marine mines. But that is a more likely scenario.

Don

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I seem to remember a very casual mention in HFQ of the possible development of 10 inch rockets (diameter, presumably) for coastal defence purposes. The MH aren't going to be defending any coasts so those are not for them.

I don't think marine mines are at all likely. But even if they are deployed I can't see them being a problem. All they do is give the RDN somewhere to hide and have nightmares about what is going to happen to them on the day the ICN figures out how to clear the mines. Meanwhile practically all traffic in strategic military materiel across the Gulf of Dohlar stops.

The ICN don't even have to blockade Gorath; they want the RDN to come out and try to fight them in open water. The ICN can go blow every other anchorage to bits while they wait, and make Hankey Sound, Salthar Bay, the Gulf of Tanshar and the Bay of Bess into Charisian ponds.

Randomiser wrote:

n7axw wrote:
I don't see Dohlar getting rockets... Those will be used by the Harchongians and the AOG... I am also skeptical of marine mines. But that is a more likely scenario.

Don

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I seem to remember a very casual mention in HFQ of the possible development of 10 inch rockets (diameter, presumably) for coastal defence purposes. The MH aren't going to be defending any coasts so those are not for them.

I don't think marine mines are at all likely. But even if they are deployed I can't see them being a problem. All they do is give the RDN somewhere to hide and have nightmares about what is going to happen to them on the day the ICN figures out how to clear the mines. Meanwhile practically all traffic in strategic military materiel across the Gulf of Dohlar stops.

The ICN don't even have to blockade Gorath; they want the RDN to come out and try to fight them in open water. The ICN can go blow every other anchorage to bits while they wait, and make Hankey Sound, Salthar Bay, the Gulf of Tanshar and the Bay of Bess into Charisian ponds.

There was a casual mention of coastal defense, but it was by the inner circle who was concerned about the vulnerability of the Haarahlds to the rockets. But there has been no indication of plans for such an application from the Temple side...

Don

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Hi Don,

Quite true, and even if they do develop some there are the whole quality control and accuracy issues; without gyroscopes etc long range accuracy will be abysmal at best, no matter how much spinning the fins provide.

Given how much easier accurate firing of unguided 10" shells are to trying to invent guidance systems for 10" rockets without even the concept of electricity is one of the hardest things I could imagine being successfully accomplished on Safehold, especially given the time limits before the Go4 collapses, impossible in this story arc.

Then there's the rate of fire; if these things weigh 500- 1000 lbs, reloads will take a while from our historic experience; ie at least a few if not several minutes minimum, as opposed to the ~30 seconds of the 10" guns.

While they may have a larger cavity for explosives, gunpowder is far less effective, assuming they come up with a practical fuse in the first place.

Getting all those bits successfully working and integrated in time seems a bit much, even for the CoGA boffins, particularly when they don't know the KH VII's are coming soon, as in a month or two.

Given their far greater effective weapons range, the KH VII's won't have to get anywhere near RDN minefields the RDN tries to hide behind, even if they are developed, even if Baron Sarmouth isn't leading them, and OWL somehow missed their development and deployment.

But Merlin might let them try, just to keep them from more practical projects that might delay the allied victory.

There are those who argue with considerable facts that the V-2/A-4 program was a waste of German resources that should have been switched to more critically needed weapons, such as a practical SAM, such as the Wasserfal [the best of those being trued] that might have been made to work if Hitler and the Nazi's had been more rational and development begun sooner.

L

n7axw wrote:

Randomiser wrote:*quote="n7axw"*

I don't see Dohlar getting rockets... Those will be used by the Harchongians and the AOG... I am also skeptical of marine mines. But that is a more likely scenario.

Don

*quote*

I seem to remember a very casual mention in HFQ of the possible development of 10 inch rockets (diameter, presumably) for coastal defence purposes. The MH aren't going to be defending any coasts so those are not for them.

I don't think marine mines are at all likely. But even if they are deployed I can't see them being a problem. All they do is give the RDN somewhere to hide and have nightmares about what is going to happen to them on the day the ICN figures out how to clear the mines. Meanwhile practically all traffic in strategic military materiel across the Gulf of Dohlar stops.

The ICN don't even have to blockade Gorath; they want the RDN to come out and try to fight them in open water. The ICN can go blow every other anchorage to bits while they wait, and make Hankey Sound, Salthar Bay, the Gulf of Tanshar and the Bay of Bess into Charisian ponds.

There was a casual mention of coastal defense, but it was by the inner circle who was concerned about the vulnerability of the Haarahlds to the rockets. But there has been no indication of plans for such an application from the Temple side...

Don

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n7axw wrote:

Randomiser wrote:
I seem to remember a very casual mention in HFQ of the possible development of 10 inch rockets (diameter, presumably) for coastal defence purposes. The MH aren't going to be defending any coasts so those are not for them.

There was a casual mention of coastal defense, but it was by the inner circle who was concerned about the vulnerability of the Haarahlds to the rockets. But there has been no indication of plans for such an application from the Temple side...

Don

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Don, It was discussed by the inner circle but only because Lynkyn and Maigwair had been talking about it.

HFQ wrote:“What are the chances of his succeeding with that bigger coast defence variant he and Maigwair discussed?” Admiral Rock Point asked. (p585, Kindle edition)

The IC concluded that Lynkyn would be bound to concentrate on the battlefield applications first, by which they seem to have meant exclusively. However, they have been wrong before.

Lyonheart, Lynkyn already has an effective fuse - the one he is using in the battlefield rockets. And yes he recognises just fine that rockets are not the most accurate ordnance in the world and would have to be used en masse to be effective. OK, that is going to be one of their main drawbacks in coastal defence, the target is relatively small and the rocket spread gets progressively larger the longer the range.

Hi all,

Randomizer, I went back into HFQ and looked... You are right that Lyncyn and Magwair did discuss a coastal defense variant of the rockets. However we are let in on that by the inner circle's noting the discussion and the impression that was left was that coastal defense variant had not yet been developed.

Since the primary development has been at St Klymans in Zion, the question would be if they can be developed and at least the finalized plans gotten to the Dohlarans in time to do any good. I doubt it. Unless I miss the gist of the snippets badly, Dohlar only has at best months left before the Alliance forces close in.

Lyonheart, you are right to note the inaccuracy of the rockets. However they don't have to be particularly accurate if they fire off those massive salvos intending to blanket a target area. If they manage to bracket a Haarahld in that target area with plunging fire, things could get really dicey, particularly since the deck armor on the Haarahlds is thin and not designed to handle plunging fire.

You are right to point out that the Haaralds are going to be able to range on targets from out beyond the range of even the rockets. They do have to get close enough to identify and range on their own targets, however. IIRC, Zhastro's Cities were ranging on targets at 6000 yards when they attacked the defenses at Desnair the City. We may safely assume that the Haarahlds would have more range than the Cities. But my question would be how much of that additional range that they will in all practicality use given the limitations of targeting. I don't know the answer to the question.

Don

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Hi Don,

You're quite right on a number of things we still don't know; the "unk-unks" are the 'unknown unknowns' are called in the development process but we're even more ignorant than that.

But the City class ironclads have 6" guns with ~68 lb shells which were shooting fairly accurately at land targets at 6000 yards while the guns apparently had a maximum range of 15,000 yards at 15 degrees.

Given the larger guns with ~200 lbs shells for the 8" and ~400 lb shells for the 10", effective ranges particularly with Lewisite fillings ought to be at least twice that, before getting into all the aerial observation balloons and improved fire control details.

Getting a lot of 10" rockets to blanket a target at 8-10,000 yards seems more than problematic if they weigh 500-1000 lbs, especially with the much larger fins required, that only a handful might be carried and launched from the transporter wagons, if they didn't use a separate launcher, probably spread over a circle at least a couple hundred yards wide to have any chance of hitting in effective numbers.

Your point about the fuse is well taken but what works for a 5" 50 lb rocket probably doesn't work so well for a 500-1000 lb rocket travelling much faster, though they're probably headed in the right direction it will still take more time to ensure it does work.

I suspect it will take time they don't have in the next book to learn that.

Regarding the KH VII's 'thin' deck armor, we're referring to 3" of Howsmynized steel armor, which is a lot tougher than anything the CoGA developers know; I suspect it will do much better than inner circle fears.

L

n7axw wrote:Hi all,

Randomizer, I went back into HFQ and looked... You are right that Lyncyn and Magwair did discuss a coastal defense variant of the rockets. However we are let in on that by the inner circle's noting the discussion and the impression that was left was that coastal defense variant had not yet been developed.

Since the primary development has been at St Klymans in Zion, the question would be if they can be developed and at least the finalized plans gotten to the Dohlarans in time to do any good. I doubt it. Unless I miss the gist of the snippets badly, Dohlar only has at best months left before the Alliance forces close in.

Lyonheart, you are right to note the inaccuracy of the rockets. However they don't have to be particularly accurate if they fire off those massive salvos intending to blanket a target area. If they manage to bracket a Haarahld in that target area with plunging fire, things could get really dicey, particularly since the deck armor on the Haarahlds is thin and not designed to handle plunging fire.

You are right to point out that the Haaralds are going to be able to range on targets from out beyond the range of even the rockets. They do have to get close enough to identify and range on their own targets, however. IIRC, Zhastro's Cities were ranging on targets at 6000 yards when they attacked the defenses at Desnair the City. We may safely assume that the Haarahlds would have more range than the Cities. But my question would be how much of that additional range that they will in all practicality use given the limitations of targeting. I don't know the answer to the question.

Don

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n7axw wrote:Hi all,
You are right to point out that the Haaralds are going to be able to range on targets from out beyond the range of even the rockets. They do have to get close enough to identify and range on their own targets, however. IIRC, Zhastro's Cities were ranging on targets at 6000 yards when they attacked the defenses at Desnair the City. We may safely assume that the Haarahlds would have more range than the Cities. But my question would be how much of that additional range that they will in all practicality use given the limitations of targeting. I don't know the answer to the question.

Don

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Is there a reason they could not tether a balloon to a Haarald class vessel? No reason to think that they have to get closer than a balloon with a good telescope requires….

Hildum wrote:

n7axw wrote:Hi all,
You are right to point out that the Haaralds are going to be able to range on targets from out beyond the range of even the rockets. They do have to get close enough to identify and range on their own targets, however. IIRC, Zhastro's Cities were ranging on targets at 6000 yards when they attacked the defenses at Desnair the City. We may safely assume that the Haarahlds would have more range than the Cities. But my question would be how much of that additional range that they will in all practicality use given the limitations of targeting. I don't know the answer to the question.

Don

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Is there a reason they could not tether a balloon to a Haarald class vessel? No reason to think that they have to get closer than a balloon with a good telescope requires….

An excellent question. My father served on a DE in WW2 and he liked to say that the horizon from the deck was 22 miles. Of course if the diameter of Safehold is different than Terra, say smaller, that will shorten up the horizon too. There is no question but what balloons with a good scope can help enormously. But there are other factors that go into targeting as well. First, how consistant is the powder and the size of the charge in the breech? Then too in adjusting the gun either left or right, long or short, how does, say, an inch alteration in the barrel produce how many feet or yards of difference in where the shell lands. Of course, further away the target, the bigger difference even minute adjustments will make.

Right now what we have on Safehold is what we can call guestimating based on what can be seen with mark one eyeball. It seems safe to say that eventually range will overrun the ability to target even with a good scope. Exactly where that point if diminishing returns is reached and cannot be effectively addressed without improving the applicable tech, I don't know.

Don

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lyonheart wrote:Hi Don,

Quite true, and even if they do develop some there are the whole quality control and accuracy issues; without gyroscopes etc long range accuracy will be abysmal at best, no matter how much spinning the fins provide.

Given how much easier accurate firing of unguided 10" shells are to trying to invent guidance systems for 10" rockets without even the concept of electricity is one of the hardest things I could imagine being successfully accomplished on Safehold, especially given the time limits before the Go4 collapses, impossible in this story arc.

Then there's the rate of fire; if these things weigh 500- 1000 lbs, reloads will take a while from our historic experience; ie at least a few if not several minutes minimum, as opposed to the ~30 seconds of the 10" guns.

While they may have a larger cavity for explosives, gunpowder is far less effective, assuming they come up with a practical fuse in the first place.

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[/quote]

Hi Lyonheart,

In a way, the problem with the rockets reminds me of the difficulty with multistage missiles in the Honorverse. Prior to Apollo, accuracy on the things stunk once the range got beyond where they they could be guided by lightspeed control from the launching ship. Even Apollo didn't completely solve this; it merely extended that range out x number of clicks before even ftl control becomes arthritic. Not saying that the improvement in targeting wasn't enormously useful, of course. I am merely pointing out that there are limits in all things. The difference is that at current level of tech, you bump into those limits much sooner on Safehold.

Don

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I got to thinking the answer for the harbor defense might be angle guns. ThenI discovered what appears to be a scale in the lower left corner of the Gorath Bay map. Using photoshop I cut the scale and put it in in several places on the Bay and realized that either the Bay is huge or the scale represents something other than miles. For example, the waterfront in Queen Zhacklyn's harbor is more than 30+ scale units long. Even if the scale is in kilometers the waterfront's well over 18 miles long using a kilometer as .6 of a mile. Anybody got any thoughts on what the scale unit is?!