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The Future of Education

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The Future of Education
Post by EdThomas   » Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:36 am

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The discussion of what might be done with freed slaves and serfs seems to bring up the issue of how to raise the levels of literacy and mathematics. How do we educate totally illiterate, or barely literate populations? How do we introduce arabic numerals and the abacus to people who've only known roman numerals?

We know the Church is supposed to provide 5 years of primary education to all children. Who takes up that burden in the world about to be born. I'm not aware if Howsmyn's going beyond primary education in his schools. I don't recall if he's even brought up the subject. I know he's training women as workers and managers

The need for anything other than a primary education has been stifled by the excellent material provided by the Archangels. Merlin's efforts to get people to say "what if?" or "why not?" will get a tremendous boost from schools and teachers trained to encourage people to ask these questions. Where will these schools and teachers come from.

How might the Royal College and Owl's libraries be linked with the schools run by the religious orders to produce healers and engineers.

So whaddaya think?
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Re: The Future of Education
Post by Peter2   » Wed Sep 21, 2016 12:29 pm

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EdThomas wrote:The discussion of what might be done with freed slaves and serfs seems to bring up the issue of how to raise the levels of literacy and mathematics. How do we educate totally illiterate, or barely literate populations? How do we introduce arabic numerals and the abacus to people who've only known roman numerals?

We know the Church is supposed to provide 5 years of primary education to all children. Who takes up that burden in the world about to be born. I'm not aware if Howsmyn's going beyond primary education in his schools. I don't recall if he's even brought up the subject. I know he's training women as workers and managers

The need for anything other than a primary education has been stifled by the excellent material provided by the Archangels. Merlin's efforts to get people to say "what if?" or "why not?" will get a tremendous boost from schools and teachers trained to encourage people to ask these questions. Where will these schools and teachers come from.

How might the Royal College and Owl's libraries be linked with the schools run by the religious orders to produce healers and engineers.

So whaddaya think?


The only thing that I can say is "To be decided." There is enough scattered textev to suggest that a degree of literacy is probably fairly widespread, although by no means universal. The level of numeracy is probably a lot lower, both in quantity and quality, among those not involved in the actual business of buying, selling, banking, and anything else to do with money, who have got to have some arithmetical competence. Abilities raised to the pitch of those seen in the Royal College are probably extremely rare, and may even be suspect in some places.

That's the starting point. Where Safehold goes from there is anybody's guess. I would be astonished if we were to find out anything new about this in ATSoT. We may find out more in future books, but I don't think that much will be explicitly stated. It wouldn't surprise me to find that the Royal College has become the nucleus of the University of Charis, or that Howsmyn's successor(s) have set up a College of Technology or endowed Charis University of Engineering, or something, but what happens elsewhere, I hesitate to speculate. All sorts of things cold happen. Something along the Engineering lines might also start up in Dohlar, provided that the local Luddites can be kept at bay.
.
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Re: The Future of Education
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Sep 21, 2016 4:21 pm

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I suspect that Safehold will use an all of the above approach.

Company towns like Delthak may have company funded primary schools systems run by the church or by private organizations.

Employers looking to fill their technical positions may sponsor students to independent schools or even support entire curriculums and schools at the secondary or tertiary levels.

The Imperial College may well establish a core system for post tertiary education that private institutions can add to. I am thinking of engineering schools that do not research as much as they simply teach the profession of engineering. The same for chemical production and engineering facilities rather than research into chemistry.

Safehold needs practical professional working in these fields and people researching to expand current knowledge. because of the rather low level of knowledge, getting as many people with some sort of baseline practical knowledge is imperative. Once there is a sufficient number of people with that base knowledge, building the researcher pool becomes more crucial.
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Re: The Future of Education
Post by elaineofshalott   » Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:25 pm

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I imagine that schooling must be starting to last longer in the Empire of Charis now that they have child labor laws. If the children can't work parents, and the community for that matter, will want them in school rather than running around getting into trouble. However, I suspect it won't be mentioned unless it somehow becomes important. I suppose we could discover if RFC updates us on the family saved from the concentration camp.
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Re: The Future of Education
Post by evilauthor   » Thu Sep 22, 2016 2:42 am

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The Church is already responsible for the first five years of schooling. I don't ever see that changing for Safehold even after they move into the space age.

However, as the need for education grows beyond what can be crammed into the basic five years, I see secular secondary schools being established. There's the Charis' Royal College and future colleges aping them. But I also see secular trade schools being created by those that need them. Heck, the Charisian Navy has already created classroom schooling for its own Officer needs; I suspect private industry will follow suit soon if they haven't already.
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Re: The Future of Education
Post by Randomiser   » Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:50 am

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The FAQs are full of good stuff. For the current and developing situation see 'Overview of Education on Safehold' here http://www.davidweber.net/faqs/index/series:6/page:2
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Re: The Future of Education
Post by isaac_newton   » Thu Sep 22, 2016 7:02 am

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Peter2 wrote:
EdThomas wrote:The discussion of what might be done with freed slaves and serfs seems to bring up the issue of how to raise the levels of literacy and mathematics. How do we educate totally illiterate, or barely literate populations? How do we introduce arabic numerals and the abacus to people who've only known roman numerals?

We know the Church is supposed to provide 5 years of primary education to all children. Who takes up that burden in the world about to be born. I'm not aware if Howsmyn's going beyond primary education in his schools. I don't recall if he's even brought up the subject. I know he's training women as workers and managers

The need for anything other than a primary education has been stifled by the excellent material provided by the Archangels. Merlin's efforts to get people to say "what if?" or "why not?" will get a tremendous boost from schools and teachers trained to encourage people to ask these questions. Where will these schools and teachers come from.

How might the Royal College and Owl's libraries be linked with the schools run by the religious orders to produce healers and engineers.

So whaddaya think?


The only thing that I can say is "To be decided." There is enough scattered textev to suggest that a degree of literacy is probably fairly widespread, although by no means universal. The level of numeracy is probably a lot lower, both in quantity and quality, among those not involved in the actual business of buying, selling, banking, and anything else to do with money, who have got to have some arithmetical competence. Abilities raised to the pitch of those seen in the Royal College are probably extremely rare, and may even be suspect in some places.

That's the starting point. Where Safehold goes from there is anybody's guess. I would be astonished if we were to find out anything new about this in ATSoT. We may find out more in future books, but I don't think that much will be explicitly stated. It wouldn't surprise me to find that the Royal College has become the nucleus of the University of Charis, or that Howsmyn's successor(s) have set up a College of Technology or endowed Charis University of Engineering, or something, but what happens elsewhere, I hesitate to speculate. All sorts of things cold happen. Something along the Engineering lines might also start up in Dohlar, provided that the local Luddites can be kept at bay.
.


Nah... It'll be the Imperial College of Science and Technology :-)

my old stomping grounds many years ago YAY
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Re: The Future of Education
Post by DDHv   » Thu Sep 22, 2016 7:27 am

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PeterZ wrote:
snip

Company towns like Delthak may have company funded primary schools systems run by the church or by private organizations.

Employers looking to fill their technical positions may sponsor students to independent schools or even support entire curriculums and schools at the secondary or tertiary levels.

snip


LeTourneau University, which I graduated from when it was a college, is one of the top technologies oriented universities in the US. It started as an evening school in his factories because RG LeTourneau wasn't pleased with the technical education level of his workers. It took several decades to reach an external tech school level, and another six or so to reach its current level.
:D
Douglas Hvistendahl
Retired technical nerd

Dumb mistakes are very irritating.
Smart mistakes go on forever
Unless you test your assumptions!
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Re: The Future of Education
Post by Bluestrike2   » Mon Sep 26, 2016 12:57 pm

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There are actually a lot of modern examples we can look at to illustrate how industrialization and education efforts can change a populace in a relatively short period. Despite the artificial cultural differences on Safehold, there are a lot of parallels between much of the freer portions of the planet and the so-called ‘Four Tigers’ (Hong Kong, Singapore, South Korea, Taiwan).

That said, you need to accept that you aren’t going to magically educate the entire populace to a common, 20th century standard even without the need to tiptoe around religious sensibilities. What you can do for existing adults is increase their overall productivity and push for at least some degree of basic literacy and applied knowledge. You want to decrease the amount of labor needed to feed the population, and shift the surplus workforce to factories in order to spur economic growth and generate the tax revenue necessary for infrastructure projects. Relevant to this thread, more efficient agriculture practices lessen the need for child labor at home while industrialization increases the average person’s income and purchasing power. It also preempts what has—historically—been the most common criticism of compulsory schooling during its initial introduction: the loss of free, built-in labor on the farm.

In other words, you use the labor force you have—trying to improve it as best you can—to support a major shift in the next generation. As one naturally dies off, it’s replace by a significantly better educated one.

Anyhow, during their occupation by Japan in WW2, each of the Four Tigers saw either the creation of a western-styled education systems much like their own (Taiwan, South Korea) or additional support for existing schooling systems developed under British colonial rule (Hong Kong, Singapore). The education system reforms didn’t mitigate the damages and problems born out under occupation, but they did provide significant long-term benefits that other developing nations lacked with their traditional schooling systems. You can see evidence of that in developing nations in Africa today. Even countries that have made significant efforts to reform their schooling systems face problems, often on a region-by-region level: look at rural China, certain areas of the Middle East and North Africa (MENA/WANA) for a variety of reasons, much of Brazil/other BRIC nations, etc.

Building education systems from the ground up—and that’s more or less what Charis has to do in territory under its control or influence—isn’t cheap or easy, but this is where those economic factors come into play. There’s going to be an immense post-war economic boom, and that’s before you even consider the Inner Circle’s ability to work with Owl to analyze trends and make subtle adjustments where needed. Education improvements alone would see a significant increase in Solow residuals.

But education is about more than just primary and secondary education. Their short-term goals (say, 1-5 years) are fairly straight-forward: increase basic literacy and numeracy amongst the general population, and provide the job-retraining necessary to get people safely working in factory environments. Long-term, the goal is to get children in an educational environment that fosters critical thinking and reasoning skills. They can’t undermine the Proscriptions or Langhorne directly with that schooling, but they can lay the groundwork so that 20 years down the line Charis has an entire generation able to start thinking critically when the ‘Truth’ is revealed. The goal is to enable people to say “well, maybe…that’s odd” after the initial shock and knee-jerk denial is over.

As for the introduction of ‘new’ concepts and ideas, the Royal College’s reputation for rigorous experimentation gives them a great deal of options for creating a false trail for anyone trying to track where all the newfangled ideas are coming from. The slowly expanding Inner Circle, including the academics that have been fully briefed, doesn’t have to introduce *every* major concept to Safehold. They just have to introduce key concepts that serve as signposts, so to speak, for non-members to run from. That both avoids a small group being the source of everything for reasons already well-established with Merlin, and fosters the sort of independent logical thinking that will be critical for the Reveal.

I think it’s likely we’d see an increase in the Royal College’s size, and additional campuses in different EoC territories and Siddarmark. We might even see Charis-inspired (or even backed) schooling throughout many areas of Safehold as other rulers start to realize the gap between their economies and Charis. If those other nations want to stay within shouting distance economically, they’re going to have to jump on the tiger’s back.

On that note, some areas--like Old Charis and Siddar--have additional advantages; most especially, significant foreign trade, cultural exchange, and relative social mobility. On the other hand, places like Desnair and Harchong on the mainland are almost the exact opposite: trade is limited and heavily restricted, caste systems (or even outright slavery) drastically limit worker productivity, and the existing social structures disincentive any sort of change to the status quo.
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Re: The Future of Education
Post by lyonheart   » Tue Sep 27, 2016 12:10 pm

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Hi Randomiser,

I believe the trade schools and institutes that quickly began teaching the 'Arabic' numbers with all their advantages to all those learning to be clerks or run their own businesses etc, have continued to spread the newer better methods Merlin and the Royal College have been turning out since.

Those trade schools and institutes will morph into junior colleges and eventually universities etc, but even now they have the important mission of explaining the new algebra, calculus, trigonometry and chemistry so that the trade school graduates have confidence in the results of that knowledge, even if they don't and won't understand most of it, it's psychologically important to know how that new knowledge is being developed and proven, not secrets of Shan Wei.

T also believe that the CoC has been improving and expanding on the Church's commitment to the first five years of education with a vastly expanded scholarship program to support as many as possible in support of the Child Labor Laws, in part to keep them out of the factories, but also to create, prepare and inspire all the teachers they obviously are going to need to flesh out those first five years for everyone, and the expanding secondary schools and colleges.

In league with that, I imagine Maikel will subtly push for secondary education for everyone including the evening adult education courses 'to cope with all the new learning and all the new trades', since they aren't sending so much to Zion from the double tithes [1/2 to 2/3 to Zion?] and other income or payments every year, the CoC now has the funds to do it, quite aside from the crown paying off its loans with interest in gold and silver.

I've previously pointed out the CoC's importance not just in the spiritual life of the empire but it's economic and cultural ones as well, especially the former; The CoC in taking over from the CoGA is the largest single contributor to the economy, largest single employer, teacher, etc, etc; all of which were taken up by the CoC, initially with few changes, but as Maikel took a firm hand began to shift more towards his vision of what Charis could and should become.

After all, he more than the crown has a greater influence on the average Charisian every day than the crown, due to his vastly greater network.

So I suspect the work of change is much further along than some think. 8-)

L


Randomiser wrote:The FAQs are full of good stuff. For the current and developing situation see 'Overview of Education on Safehold' here http://www.davidweber.net/faqs/index/series:6/page:2
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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