"Obsolete SDs" Waste not...

jtg452 wrote:

Somtaaw wrote:

Could always resurrect the spirit of Cordelia Randsom. "Solarian prisoners? We have no records of any Solarian prisoners, surely you must be mistaken?"

Meanwhile in Cerberus, Hades is still an entire planet, and their prisoner camps numbered in the low thousands, so they have PLENTY of room to throw even more camps. Assuming, of course, that even the Republic of Haven even still maintains even a minimal prison there after Honor's mass breakout.

And of course, Manticore and Haven both, are too honorable and proud to actually abuse their prisoners, despite the screaming on Spindle that they already are being mistreated. Those poor, poor Solarians, being forced to live on tropical islands that may not be ultra-deluxe resorts, are still tropical islands.

I'm sure that the first set of Alliance ships that get forced to surrender, since I'm not putting it past RFC to figure out some way to do it. The SLN will probably end up acting in some manner, similar to StateSec during the Buttercup Offensive, basically abuse the high hell out of the prisoners to take out their fears and anger at "those cheating Manticorans!" on the prisoners that are in their reach.

If you can, send the prisoners back.

They are a logistical strain that you don't have to bear. No prisoners means there's no need to feed them, clothe them, guard them or supply medical care. By sending them back, they are a burden on your enemy instead of yourself.

If you aren't going to send them back on the premise that you want to deny the enemy the use of them as already trained personnel, then you have to treat them right.

If you don't, then what is making the enemy treat your people they are holding prisoner well?

Or to ask it another way, what is stopping the enemy from treating your people poorly?

Manticore treated its Havenite prisoners, very very well throughout the first war. That didn't stop Cordelia Randsom and StateSec from abusing the utter hell out of their relatively few Manticoran prisoners.

And the Solarian League's going to be even worse, because it's already realized that it's in a fight for survival with Manticore. It hasn't needed an internal coup (like Pierre's Committee of Public Safety) to realize that either Manticore or the League has to be totally eliminated for the other to survive. Which means the first Alliance prisoners to be captured by the League, are already doomed from the get-go, because the League's under the double pressure of knowing it's in a fight for mere existance, and the Buttercup-esque "holy s*&^, their warfighting technology is years ahead of ours". It took Haven almost a decade to have both barrels pointing at it.


And until now, nobody's ever had the balls to call the League out for their daily barbaric practices (OFS, and Gendarms), so they've actually never treated their prisoners of war well.

[Technically OFS has been in a near-permanent state of war, to assimilate Verge worlds, whether they actually wanted to join or not... meaning every rebel they called a terrorist was actually a prisoner of war, despite the lack of an official state of war]

noblehunter wrote:I don't think it would be in Manticore's interest to help inspire an SD-focused arms race. The post-war environment would be a lot less fraught if every Battle Fleet ship was destroyed, scuttled, or scrapped. The more SDs floating around, the more likely it is that they're going to get used. The last thing they'd want is for the dissolution of the league to turn into a general melee among the successor states.

That will happen either way. The only difference is that one way Manticore and the GA can control to a degree the direction of those they choose to assist. When they have Manticore and the GA as a protector after the collapse of the League and before they can stand on their own feet they will be more likely to be allies down the road.

Everyone or at least the vast majority of the Core and shell worlds will be trying to build, buy or otherwise cobble together a fleet and they will be trying to get their hands on the biggest and strongest ships they can, it's inevitable unless the GA takes a much more hands on approach which is not likely.

jtg452 wrote:

Somtaaw wrote:

Could always resurrect the spirit of Cordelia Randsom. "Solarian prisoners? We have no records of any Solarian prisoners, surely you must be mistaken?"

Meanwhile in Cerberus, Hades is still an entire planet, and their prisoner camps numbered in the low thousands, so they have PLENTY of room to throw even more camps. Assuming, of course, that even the Republic of Haven even still maintains even a minimal prison there after Honor's mass breakout.

And of course, Manticore and Haven both, are too honorable and proud to actually abuse their prisoners, despite the screaming on Spindle that they already are being mistreated. Those poor, poor Solarians, being forced to live on tropical islands that may not be ultra-deluxe resorts, are still tropical islands.

I'm sure that the first set of Alliance ships that get forced to surrender, since I'm not putting it past RFC to figure out some way to do it. The SLN will probably end up acting in some manner, similar to StateSec during the Buttercup Offensive, basically abuse the high hell out of the prisoners to take out their fears and anger at "those cheating Manticorans!" on the prisoners that are in their reach.

If you can, send the prisoners back.

They are a logistical strain that you don't have to bear. No prisoners means there's no need to feed them, clothe them, guard them or supply medical care. By sending them back, they are a burden on your enemy instead of yourself.

If you aren't going to send them back on the premise that you want to deny the enemy the use of them as already trained personnel, then you have to treat them right.

If you don't, then what is making the enemy treat your people they are holding prisoner well?

Or to ask it another way, what is stopping the enemy from treating your people poorly?

Nothing, but in this case nothing they do has any real effect on their treatment. It does not serve the Mandarins purpose to admit that the POW's are treated well, much better then they would be in Solarian Camps.

Weird Harold wrote:
We're not talking about Manticoran SDs, or SDs from some other source. We're talking about captured Scientist-Class SLN ships. The Scientist-class ships have been deemed unsuitable for automated operation -- whether to reduce crew size or to turn them into drones. (Consensus opinion in previous iterations of this thread.)

I am in no way talking about adding automation to the captured SD's, I am talking about using them as training ships that also double as a combat platform so that the host nation contributes to it's own defence.

Look at this scenario:
I am using Hypothetical numbers here...
-Group 1: 3000 people manning missiles, lasers, grasers etc...
-Group 2:1500 in engineering, damage control etc...
-Group 3:750 bridge, cic, communications, intelligence etc...
-Group 4:750-1000 support
Total Crew 6,000-6,250

Now you look at those numbers and compare to crew from a Manticoran or Grayson SD that has as much automation as they can fit in.
Hypothetical RMN SD:
-Group 1: 150
-Group 2: 350
-Group 3: 250
-Group 4: 150

For a total Crew of ~900.

For Group 1, you can have the equivalent of 8 crews manning those weapons and still have plenty of weapon systems that are not being used. You would be training the equivalent of 8 ships worth of grazer, laser, missile, PD etc... techs and operators. And you are saving 1,800 people worth of space. Will that compromise the fighting capability of the ship? Yes. Will that give you 8 full crew's to man new ships or man schools? Yes.

Group 2: This allows you to train 4 crews, you can have everyone with a station and rotate them through so that they can learn the ropes on more than one job.

Group 3: You can train a total of 4 crew's and like engineering this gives you the opportunity to give people multiple positions to train in.

Group 4: About 4 more crew's as well.

For a total of ~4,200 people plus whatever Staff Manticore or it's allies send to teach.

In one to two years you end up with 4 SD's worth of crews. Half go to the schools, the other half man a division of SD's. Within 5 years that nation might have the capability to field 4-6 SD's plus whatever else they are working on simultaneously(LAC's, Cruisers, DD's etc..)

The SD's would not be combat effective if there are only 1,200 experienced crew on board, so playing with the manning and training the crew's based on the equipment they can expect to have might make more sense without actually going out and trying to Automate anything.

Weird Harold wrote:I'm not requiring them to get dumbed down LACs, that's your paranoia talking. I expect the GA to provide first or second generation Shrikes, Ferrets or Cimmeterres.

It is not paranoia, it required a very, very basic understanding of history.

Especially when the situation is that a relatively small alliance is dismantling the largest nation in history. A Nation that has lasted for several hundred years and has been looking down on everyone else for just as long.

There would be hundreds if not thousands of Core and Shell worlds, many would want nothing more than to be left alone in peace but others will see this as their opportunity to settle a score or build an empire. The GA cannot afford to be giving first rate weapons and weapon systems to just anyone when they can turn around and use those weapons to commit atrocities.

Trust is earned, in some cases the process can be sped up due to other considerations but when the odds are stacked so far against you trust has to be earned.

Weird Harold wrote:1) I'm not suggesting that a LACs + Missiles defensive installation is anything like a "First Rate Military."

And you think Core and shell worlds will settle for lower level of protection than the best they can get?

Weird Harold wrote:2) You demonstrate the power of a new-model LAC and point out that this is the same sort of system you're providing your own outlying systems (in the case of GA suppliers; others can point to GA installations.)

Backed up by about a thousand or more SD(P)'s of the GA... I would say that does more for the defence of those systems than the missile pods and LAC's.

Weird Harold wrote:3) You don't convince them that LACs + Missiles are the answer to all of their needs. You offer to sell them anything beyond the defensive installation at regular, un-discounted rates. You only need to convince them that LACs + Missiles are the minimum they need for defense.

And how do you convince them that is the minimum needed for their defence?

Weird Harold wrote:And some, like Technodyne, are not "Haven-sector Navies." What they have to offer may not be up to even "Manticore Lite" but they are options for systems that don't want to deal with Manticore or the GA -- the Renaissance Factor, for example.

Yeah and when the GA finds out about the RF it might mean anyone who buys from them looses their investment... and their fleet becomes expanding field of debris.

Weird Harold wrote:The RF is more likely to offer RF task-forces than independent defense systems to their clients and prospective members. The Andermani probably don't have competitive LACs, but could substitute destroyers or cruisers with extended range/MDM missiles for LACs.

How long do those task forces last once Manticore figures out who the RF is?

Weird Harold wrote:I foresee a widespread and vigorous arms trade in the post-SL universe. Just who and what they have to offer and what systems are willing to spend money on, or what strings will be attached to any particular arms sale, is something I can't predict. About the only thing I am willing to predict is that Scientist-Class SDs are NOT going to be a significant part of that trade. There are going to be too many cheaper and more effective options available to just about any system willing to do even rudimentary research.

I am not suggesting that Scientists class SD's are going to be in the trade either or that they will last for longer than a few years as they will be primarily a training platform. What I am saying is that Manticore has a chance to hand over a bunch of SD's and send technical staff to assist with a building of new navies and influencing those systems from the get-go.

Sigs wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:And some, like Technodyne, are not "Haven-sector Navies." What they have to offer may not be up to even "Manticore Lite" but they are options for systems that don't want to deal with Manticore or the GA -- the Renaissance Factor, for example.

Yeah and when the GA finds out about the RF it might mean anyone who buys from them looses their investment... and their fleet becomes expanding field of debris.

Weird Harold wrote:The RF is more likely to offer RF task-forces than independent defense systems to their clients and prospective members. The Andermani probably don't have competitive LACs, but could substitute destroyers or cruisers with extended range/MDM missiles for LACs.

How long do those task forces last once Manticore figures out who the RF is?

What, beyondd wishful thinking, makes you think that Manticore/GA is going to identify the Renaissance Factor as the MAlign reincarnated?

The RF is positioned to appear as the antithesis of the MAlign and will be acting in essentially the same manner as dozens of other mutual defense pacts that are coalescing into multi-system star nations. By the time they become big enough and start working at cross-purposes to Manticore's interests, the Solarian League is going to be well into the legends phase and on its way to becoming myth. The question of what sort of defenses and Navy any given system is going to have will be long answered.

There is no reason to believe that the RF is anything more than it appears and even if Black Victor and "The most famous spy in the Universe" turn up the MAlign connection, convincing anyone else that the RF is evil is going to be a very rough challenge.

Somtaaw wrote:
And of course, Manticore and Haven both, are too honorable and proud to actually abuse their prisoners, despite the screaming on Spindle that they already are being mistreated. Those poor, poor Solarians, being forced to live on tropical islands that may not be ultra-deluxe resorts, are still tropical islands.

And there are good practical reasons to treat SLN prisoners well, regardless of how the SLN treats its own prisoners.

Manticore is hoping to get the League to fracture into smaller groups of planets. Even if the League is putting out propaganda that Manticore is abusing prisoners they have ways to backchannel info to at least the friendlier planets showing evidence that they aren't.
But the captured personnel will come from some of the very worlds Manticore desires to end the war on good terms with - abusing that worlds citizens would be wildly counterproductive to achieving that long term post-war harmony. (And repatriating citizen of systems that withdraw from the League can be a carrot or at least a good will gesture towards them) So even if, for some reason, you don't want to consider moral reasons for treating them well there are practical reasons to do so.

Sigs wrote:I am in no way talking about adding automation to the captured SD's, I am talking about using them as training ships that also double as a combat platform so that the host nation contributes to it's own defence.

Look at this scenario:
I am using Hypothetical numbers here...
-Group 1: 3000 people manning missiles, lasers, grasers etc...
-Group 2:1500 in engineering, damage control etc...
-Group 3:750 bridge, cic, communications, intelligence etc...
-Group 4:750-1000 support
Total Crew 6,000-6,250

Now you look at those numbers and compare to crew from a Manticoran or Grayson SD that has as much automation as they can fit in.
Hypothetical RMN SD:
-Group 1: 150
-Group 2: 350
-Group 3: 250
-Group 4: 150

For a total Crew of ~900.

For Group 1, you can have the equivalent of 8 crews manning those weapons and still have plenty of weapon systems that are not being used. You would be training the equivalent of 8 ships worth of grazer, laser, missile, PD etc... techs and operators. And you are saving 1,800 people worth of space. Will that compromise the fighting capability of the ship? Yes. Will that give you 8 full crew's to man new ships or man schools? Yes.

I disagree for a couple of reasons.
One, a old 6000 man SD has way more low level 'grunt work' positions than a 900 man modern SD(P) - but almost no additional members in the command and upper departement levels. It doesn't seem (to me) to do much good to have 4 times the basic enginerring techs trained if you've only got the same number of engineering chiefs, or tactical officers, or XOs, or Captains. You end up with too few command crews for the mass of basic spacers you ran through OTJ training.

Second it presumes that hands on training on ex-SLN tech is good, or at least adequate, training for the non-obsolete ships the crews will be transferred to after training. The Scienists class are so obsolete I think that's a very risky assumption - certainly for anybody whose future navy will have access to Manticoran naval tech (even Mantie-lite)
Taking a real work example, before the Ticonderoga-class cruiser the previous non-nuclear design for the USN was the Belknap-class which has a noticeably higher manning 27 officers, 450 enlisted vs 33 officers and approx. 360 enlisted. But you couldn't take most people trained on a Belcamp and transfer them to a Ticonderoga without sending them back to various tech schools to be largely retrained - the systems are too different and therefore so is how you operated, maintain, and troubleshoot them.

I just doubt that these ex-SLN SDs are even good for training ships, no matter how many people it takes to run them. You'd be better off with ground schools and simulators designed to train you on the ships (and tech) you'd actually be using later - very little of a spacer's training is shipboard (unless you count the process, during their first real assigned post training, where the more experienced crews knock away some of the book learning and replacing it with how things really work in the fleet.

Sigs wrote:
Nothing, but in this case nothing they do has any real effect on their treatment. It does not serve the Mandarins purpose to admit that the POW's are treated well, much better then they would be in Solarian Camps.

While it does not serve their purpose to treat the prisoners well, I would expect that for the majority of prisoners they will be treated no worse than shabbily (make your own housing, food is monotonous, and the clothes get rather threadbare before replacement). Severely abusing prisoners is too much like work, torture will be reserved for special prisoners. Even at Cerberus, most of the prisoners were not actively mistreated, I would expect (hope?) that the percentage of severely abused prisoners would be lower with the SL.

Sigs wrote:
I am not suggesting that Scientists class SD's are going to be in the trade either or that they will last for longer than a few years as they will be primarily a training platform. What I am saying is that Manticore has a chance to hand over a bunch of SD's and send technical staff to assist with a building of new navies and influencing those systems from the get-go.

Instead of the Scientists, why not use one of the Sphinx/Gryphons recently placed in storage for a live training platform? They use Manticorian standard hardware, Manticorian standard software, Manticorian standard practices, etc. Also Manticorian training systems and services already exist for the ships, as well as manuals, and Manticorian fleet trainers already are trained on them.

Castenea wrote:

Sigs wrote:
Nothing, but in this case nothing they do has any real effect on their treatment. It does not serve the Mandarins purpose to admit that the POW's are treated well, much better then they would be in Solarian Camps.

While it does not serve their purpose to treat the prisoners well, I would expect that for the majority of prisoners they will be treated no worse than shabbily (make your own housing, food is monotonous, and the clothes get rather threadbare before replacement). Severely abusing prisoners is too much like work, torture will be reserved for special prisoners. Even at Cerberus, most of the prisoners were not actively mistreated, I would expect (hope?) that the percentage of severely abused prisoners would be lower with the SL.

Depends on who gets them, if the people who are most invested in the idea that the SLN is the biggest strongest invincible navy around get their hands on prisoners they will likely abuse them about of spite. Also any scrap of information they can torture out of prisoners can be of immense value to the SLNs effort to catch up, so that is an extra angle to encourage torture.

Theemile wrote:

Sigs wrote:
I am not suggesting that Scientists class SD's are going to be in the trade either or that they will last for longer than a few years as they will be primarily a training platform. What I am saying is that Manticore has a chance to hand over a bunch of SD's and send technical staff to assist with a building of new navies and influencing those systems from the get-go.

Instead of the Scientists, why not use one of the Sphinx/Gryphons recently placed in storage for a live training platform? They use Manticorian standard hardware, Manticorian standard software, Manticorian standard practices, etc. Also Manticorian training systems and services already exist for the ships, as well as manuals, and Manticorian fleet trainers already are trained on them.

If they meet the requirements and are not needed for actual combat operations by the GA it doesn't really matter where the ships come from or what kind of DN/SD is used for training purposes. The point is that you have maybe a hundred SD's plus an equal number of lighter combatants captured, if nothing else is available the ex-SLN SD's should do just fine. At the end of the day, even the Havenite BB's would do just fine, as they would allow training on a semi-modern warship that would allow the host nation the ability to build up it's manpower.