ATST Snippet #6 (I think)

n7axw wrote:

WeberFan wrote:But now we see in Snippet 7 that Thirsk has grabbed the slash lizard by the throat and is really going to act. I don't see any hesitation here. The question is HOW he will act - no longer whether or not he will act decisively.

Your last sentence nails it. We are still left hanging in that we still don't know what Thirsk is going to tell Maik or what he is going to do.

We knew Thirsk would do something.

The real nailbiter here is wht Maik is going to do. My own suspicion is that in his own mind Maik has been caught between his vows as a Schulerite and his basic sense of right and wrong for a long time. What Thirsk says to him could well force him to decision and commitment.

I've been thinking that for a while.

Thirsk is aware that he's still alive and in command of the RDN because Maik has been protecting him. He also knows Maik is well aware of how he feels about what he's been required to do.

Maik has carefully kept his own counsel, but Thirsk must at least suspect Maik is as unhappy about the present situation as Thirsk is.

Maik is an older guy, and was an Inquisitor (and likely auxiliary Bishop) before Clyntahn got elected Grand Inquisitor in a rigged Vicarate election. But as a sworn Inquisitor, he took vows of obedience to the Grand Inquisitor - to the office, and not the particular individual holding the office.

So he's in a position similar to Thirsk. Thirsk is a Dohlaran, and a subject of King Rahnyld, who swore oaths to serve and obey his King, and his King has steadily demonstrated himself to be unfit to be King and has been acquiescing in leading Dohlar to ruin and destruction. Thirsk's vows have come under increasing pressure as what he is required to do conflicts both with what is right and what is necessary for the survival of his nation.

Maik is in a similar position as Zhaspar Clyntahn leads Mother Church to destruction and ruin, and perverts the cause he tries to serve. He hasn't really shown his hand, but he has to be wondering where it will all lead, and he's in a position to see the information that says just how badly the Jihad is going, with the very real possibility the Church could lose. What happens if it does? At what point (if he's not there already) does he decide that his vows as a priest, and his necessity to support the Writ and Mother Church are in direct conflict with his vows to obey the Grand Inquisitor? Thirsk knows Rahnyld is unfit to be King of Dohlar. What happens if Maik decides Zhaspar Clyntahn is unfit to be Grand Inquisitor, and should not be obeyed because his actions profane his office and threaten Mother Church itself and the spiritual health of all of Safehold?

Thirsk and Maik mirror what's happening to all of Safehold, as people are forced to consider what they believe, not simply what they are told, and what their responsibilities are in consequence.
______
Dennis

What's going to be fascinating with this is what the flashpoint for breaking all of this out in the open is going to be. My own thought was that it would be orders from Zion to send the Dohlaran seamen to Zion.

But now I'm not so sure. That was supposed to be coming the following spring. But it appears that events have accelerated and will overtake Dohlar before that can happen. I refer to the arrival of the powerful ICN reinforcements in the Gulf along with the hint that the steam powered ironcladds are on the way, maybe the Haarahlds. That coupled with Hanth's continuing pressure on Rychtar may well bring Dohlar's collapse fairly soon.

Don

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DMcCunney wrote:snip

Thirsk and Maik mirror what's happening to all of Safehold, as people are forced to consider what they believe, not simply what they are told, and what their responsibilities are in consequence.
______
Dennis

Eloquent as always,Dennis. Here you condensed the goal of this story arc into one sentence. Archbishop Maikel has been preaching this from the get go. Clyntahn has launched the jihad to prevent this from happening. The Allies fight to create conditions where Safeholdian can exercise this responsibility of theirs.

It follows then that Thirsk and by extension all of Dohlar can act just as soon as the KH VIIs steam into Gorath Bay. Those ships clearly represent an irresistible force. If Dohlarans choose to fight them, they do so because their faith demands they fight for God against anything made by man. If they choose to surrender, they do so knowing that God made their choice as stark as He possibly could.. Do those ships and the men on them represent the forces of Hell that all godly men must resist unto death? Or do they represent the biggest, most obvious clue stick God can bring to bear?

The choice will be so clear that it will not matter what Clyntahn says. Everything that has transpired. Every cruelty from Clyntahn. Every merciful gesture from Their Majesties. All of that will be weighed, sifted and analyzed to determine how to view those ships. I doubt very many will view Clyntahn's management of the jihad and see the KHVIIs as anything but God's clue stick.

Hi PeterZ,

You and Dennis have put it very well.

The KH VII's clearly represent an irresistible force to any rational sailor, so why would God permit the devil or Shan Wei to create and have such things?

Maybe he didn't, Maybe he let the good guys build them.

Given the mercy we've seen displayed in SoV by the TG's Cuthbertson sent out, we may see this mercy demonstrated again in AtSoT, with the RDN in Gorath Bay etc.

Given the EoC can now build as many KH VII's as it wants, as RFC posted so many years ago, every enemy nation that sees them will quickly learn just how outclassed it is, and that it needs at least 5 if not 10 years of peace to build something similar, because the EoC and ICN certainly won't let them try to build anything like them during the war, which is another reason to end the current war, yet what fate awaits those that seek such a peace to preserve the CoGA, from those that scream any treating with heretics is also heresy and treason against God?

Then there's the question of where the EoC and the ICN will be in 20 years for the next story arc, if they went from wooden galleons to early 15,000 ton steam battleships in five years?

L


[quote="PeterZ"][quote="DMcCunney"]snip

Thirsk and Maik mirror what's happening to all of Safehold, as people are forced to consider what [i]they[/i] believe, not simply what they are told, and what their responsibilities are in consequence.
______
[b]Dennis[/b][/quote]

Eloquent as always,Dennis. Here you condensed the goal of this story arc into one sentence. Archbishop Maikel has been preaching this from the get go. Clyntahn has launched the jihad to prevent this from happening. The Allies fight to create conditions where Safeholdian can exercise this responsibility of theirs.

It follows then that Thirsk and by extension all of Dohlar can act just as soon as the KH VIIs steam into Gorath Bay. Those ships clearly represent an irresistible force. If Dohlarans choose to fight them, they do so because their faith demands they fight for God against anything made by man. If they choose to surrender, they do so knowing that God made their choice as stark as He possibly could.. Do those ships and the men on them represent the forces of Hell that all godly men must resist unto death? Or do they represent the biggest, most obvious clue stick God can bring to bear?

The choice will be so clear that it will not matter what Clyntahn says. Everything that has transpired. Every cruelty from Clyntahn. Every merciful gesture from Their Majesties. All of that will be weighed, sifted and analyzed to determine how to view those ships. I doubt very many will view Clyntahn's management of the jihad and see the KHVIIs as anything but God's clue stick.[/quote]

Thank you for the kind words, Lyonheart.

I would like to revisit one of your pet issues. Greentree Island.

We have more recently discovered that South Harchong does not practice slavery and they do not have the great serf run plantations found up North. Desnair has the slaves and North Harchong has the serfs. The logistics of getting escaped slaves from Desnair from Hankey Sound to Greentree Island requires more shipping than getting the same slaves to Tarot.

I agree that Greentree would make for a good anchorage, but Claw Island is already established and it is not that far away. Better to establish additional ICN ports on Westbreak Island, Sampson's Land and the Dohlar Bank (Trove Island). That would place 4 ICN anchorages about 2,000 miles apart all along the Western shore of Howard. Assuming the ICN controls and improves the Silkiah-Salthar Canal, the Eastern shore will have between 3,000-4,000 miles between ICN ports. The information cycle time along the Western shore of Howard is about 2 5-days for information to reach an ICN station commander and his response arriving where it is needed. That period is about 3 5-days along the Western shore. This assumes a patrol cannot respond sooner.

So, I would suspect that should there be a significant underground railroad to free Desnairan slaves, that railroad would either end in Siddermark and/or Tarot. From Tarot the freed slaves can continue wherever they are most needed. Silverlode comes to mind.

I don't doubt that Greentree Island will grow more quickly as Charisian ships supplying their bases also stop there for R&R. Both the ICN and ICMM ships will use the island's ports enough to draw more people looking for opportunities. I doubt that the island will draw as many freed slaves as will be sent to either Tarot or Siddermark.

It would be fun to see if and how RFC will play this. I just doubt that he would revisit the idea of slavery on Safehold if he didn't have something in mind for a future plot element.

lyonheart wrote:Hi PeterZ,

You and Dennis have put it very well.

The KH VII's clearly represent an irresistible force to any rational sailor, so why would God permit the devil or Shan Wei to create and have such things?

Maybe he didn't, Maybe he let the good guys build them.

Given the mercy we've seen displayed in SoV by the TG's Cuthbertson sent out, we may see this mercy demonstrated again in AtSoT, with the RDN in Gorath Bay etc.

Given the EoC can now build as many KH VII's as it wants, as RFC posted so many years ago, every enemy nation that sees them will quickly learn just how outclassed it is, and that it needs at least 5 if not 10 years of peace to build something similar, because the EoC and ICN certainly won't let them try to build anything like them during the war, which is another reason to end the current war, yet what fate awaits those that seek such a peace to preserve the CoGA, from those that scream any treating with heretics is also heresy and treason against God?

Then there's the question of where the EoC and the ICN will be in 20 years for the next story arc, if they went from wooden galleons to early 15,000 ton steam battleships in five years?

L

PeterZ wrote:

DMcCunney wrote:snip

Thirsk and Maik mirror what's happening to all of Safehold, as people are forced to consider what they believe, not simply what they are told, and what their responsibilities are in consequence.

Eloquent as always,Dennis. Here you condensed the goal of this story arc into one sentence. Archbishop Maikel has been preaching this from the get go. Clyntahn has launched the jihad to prevent this from happening. The Allies fight to create conditions where Safeholdian can exercise this responsibility of theirs

Thank you..

It follows then that Thirsk and by extension all of Dohlar can act just as soon as the KH VIIs steam into Gorath Bay. Those ships clearly represent an irresistible force. If Dohlarans choose to fight them, they do so because their faith demands they fight for God against anything made by man. If they choose to surrender, they do so knowing that God made their choice as stark as He possibly could.. Do those ships and the men on them represent the forces of Hell that all godly men must resist unto death? Or do they represent the biggest, most obvious clue stick God can bring to bear?

Alas, we know the KHVII's constitute an irresistible force. The RDN does not. Charis has done everything it can to keep the KHVIIs as secret as possible. When the KHVII's sail into Gorath Bay, the RDN will see the biggest warships ever built on Safehold, but they will be defending thir homeland. They'll have to find out the hard way and pay a price in blood before it's clear the KHVIIs are an irresistable force, and their choices are surrender or die.

The choice will be so clear that it will not matter what Clyntahn says. Everything that has transpired. Every cruelty from Clyntahn. Every merciful gesture from Their Majesties. All of that will be weighed, sifted and analyzed to determine how to view those ships. I doubt very many will view Clyntahn's management of the jihad and see the KHVIIs as anything but God's clue stick.

Folks with working brains have likely been (quietly) wondering that for a while.

Ever since the ICA got fully deployed in Siddarmark, Mother Church has lost every major engagement, with the corresponding destruction of the armies involved. The Inquisition has been doing its best to suppress the facts (and Thirsk only knows how bad things are because Maik has been showing him reports he isn't supposed to see), but rumors will spread despite the Inquisition.

If the forces fighting for Mother Church are truly on the side of God and the Archangels, they have to be wondering why there hasn't been divine intervention on their behalf. Unless, of course, Zhaspar Clyntahn is wrong, and God and the Archangels aren't on their side.

Part of the fun has been the increasing distinction drawn by the faithful between Mother Church and the Grand Inquisitor, and the suspicion in some folks that maybe Clyntahn actually serves Shan Wei and is leading everyone to damnation.

I strongly suspect Bishop Maik isn't the only member of the Inquisition who has increasing doubts about his ultimate ecclesiastic superior, and remembers that it's his duty as a priest of Mother Church to die, if necessary, to prevent the sort of atrocities his own superior ordered.
______
Dennis

DMcCunney wrote:SNIp

Alas, we know the KHVII's constitute an irresistible force. The RDN does not.
Snip
[/quote]
I hate to be a party pooper here but the KHVII's aren't gonna do very well against mines.
The Celeryeater's been nasty enough to put some very smart and creative folk among the badguys. These, and others we haven't heard of yet, smart and creative types have been looking at the clever fuses the good guys have developed. Might one of these SaC folks figure out how to build a contact fuse for a tethered mine?

Gorath Bay has some pretty narrow channels and the entrances to Queen Zhakleen's Harbor are beyond narrow. Only the Celeryeater knows what dastardly plots Thirsk's minions have developed. He's nasty enough to not even tell us until one of our irresistible forces is just a few paragraphs away from becoming the first capital ship to be sunk by a mine.

Mines are wonderful if the ships steaming into them are unaware. I can find no conceivable circumstance where the KHVIIs remain ignorant of those mines. Just having Admiral Sarmouth onboard one of those monsters will be enough to prevent any mines from being effective.

I also suspect that explosions in a minefield will do nasty things to those mines' effectiveness. Tossing sticks of dyna....er...Lewysite from a shallow draft schooner will destroy enough mines to enable passage for the KHVIIs and likely the remaining fleet.

That assumes the RDN hasn't created a passage through the mine field or the KHVIIs couldn't cover schooners working with divers to cut the mine's tethers. As I said the only way that a minefield will work is if the ICN is ignorant of their existence. Sarmouth's presence means the ICN squadrons operating in the Gulf of Dohlar know everything about them.

Mines won't accomplish much.

As an alternative, at some point some people may say "We are clearly losing. To protect Holy Mother Church, we must offer to change sides, conditional on there being no further executions of members of the clergy, except for the people who abused prisoners of war."

Readers will recall the debate as to whether or not the Japanese would have agreed to surrender sooner if they were offered terms that protected the Emperor, or perhaps required that the Emperor abdicate and the next in line become Emperor.

DMcCunney wrote:

PeterZ wrote:It follows then that Thirsk and by extension all of Dohlar can act just as soon as the KH VIIs steam into Gorath Bay. Those ships clearly represent an irresistible force. If Dohlarans choose to fight them, they do so because their faith demands they fight for God against anything made by man. If they choose to surrender, they do so knowing that God made their choice as stark as He possibly could.. Do those ships and the men on them represent the forces of Hell that all godly men must resist unto death? Or do they represent the biggest, most obvious clue stick God can bring to bear?

snip

Alas, we know the KHVII's constitute an irresistible force. The RDN does not. Charis has done everything it can to keep the KHVIIs as secret as possible. When the KHVII's sail into Gorath Bay, the RDN will see the biggest warships ever built on Safehold, but they will be defending thir homeland. They'll have to find out the hard way and pay a price in blood before it's clear the KHVIIs are an irresistable force, and their choices are surrender or die.
Dennis

Let's assume no mine fields for the moment.

The RDN sails out to meet the KHVIIs rather than fighting them at anchor. The KHVIIs bypass the fleet and sail straight into the port. The Haraalds target the largets Inquisition facility with 1 round from each of their 8" and 10" guns. That's 12 10"ers and 12 8"ers firing at the facility. I assume that these shells will have true HE in them as Dr. Lewis should be able to create enough for this expedition.

There is no way that facility survives 24 HE shells fired from 8 & 10 inch guns.

Sarmouth then requests a parlay.

Suppose the RDN chooses to fight from under their fort's guns. The Haraald's anchor out of the forts' guns range and commence firing on the Inquisition's facility. In this circumstance, sarmouth and Hektor will have to play with OWLs remotes to refine their aim. The parlay request follows the display accurace and destructive force and Dohlar faces the same menu of options. Surrender or die. Choosing to fight will end in a death that accomplishes absolutely nothing.

Sorry, Dennis, but there is no way any sailor will fight that sort of fire power unless they firmly believe the Haraald's were demon's work. There is no way any civilian on shore would suffer bombardment from those guns if they could avoid it. The Dohlarans will have their demonstrated proof that they face an irresistible force in the Haraald's.