"Obsolete SDs" Waste not...

Weird Harold wrote:Yes, the same problems, but on a much smaller scale. Missiles can be built in numerous small factories. Warships require a lot more infrastructure and space.

And missiles are a lot easier to kill in much larger numbers. You need them either way but I wouldn't be putting all my eggs in one basket.

Weird Harold wrote:Missiles can be maintained in the equivalent of a small barn, warships require a multi-megaton sized dock.

How frequently, for what duration and for what reason do they require a dock? And is there an alternative (Like capturing SLN yards) for the immediate future?

Weird Harold wrote:Training a crew of ten for one LAC gives you cadre to teach ten more crews, etc, ad nauseum.

It will eventually get out that Manticore and Grayson have implemented techniques to lower their total crew's. It doesn't take a genius or some special technology to do so. How many of those 6,000 would be eliminated in a Manticoran SD? A Medusa-B has a complement of 900 not counting Marines. You put those 900 plus another 5 ships companies plus Manticoran/Havenite/Grayson instructors and after 2 years you have 6 Crew's from a single ship. After that you have 6 crew's that might be inexperienced and not trained to the highest of standards but ultimately you have 6 crew's that can fight.

Some of those crew's can man ships while others can man their schools and academies training the next batch.

Weird Harold wrote:LACs are 20-thousand tons, Scientist-class SDs are around 4-Million Tons. (Shrike-class) LACs require a crew of ten, Scientist-Class SDs can't even move without a thousand-man ferry crew. Normal Crew is 6,000 and that doesn't account for the necessary OJT students in every department.

Ok, and how many export version LAC's would it take to take out 10 SD's? Even Solarian once? There is a reason that all the major powers have a mix of weapon systems. Sending LAC's especially dumbed down Havenite once against a prepared and expecting enemy is going to end up costing you dearly.

We are not talking about systems that are third rate verge economies, we are talking about first rate economies which would be at great risk for someone to a)conquer them, b)raid them or c)destroy them in order to eliminate a potential future threat.


You are asking nations which don't know or fully trust the power of a modern state of the art LAC from Manticore to put their lives and livelihoods on a LAC from haven that is intentionally dumbed down.

Weird Harold wrote:I did NOT say the GA would provide, I said "numerous extra-solarian polities." That would include the Andermani, Erewhon, Zanzibar, Alizon, Maya, and several others we only have names or hints of.

And most of those entities are in one way or another tied with or are part of the GA.




And lastly, let me ask you this:

How many first rate militaries in the world today have purely defensive weapons and no offensive power?

How do you convince an entire planet to put their future in a weapons mix that until yesterday was useless in their minds?

And how do you convince them that the gaping holes in their defences LAC's and Missiles would leave are not a reason to worry?




If you build a military based around LAC's and pods you need one type of infrastructure. If after a while it becomes apparent that you need actual warships it would be like starting from scratch, your crew's have zero experience or training with anything larger then a LAC, your infrastructure is geared to building, supplying and maintaining LAC's so you need to start from scratch there. And worst of all, you still wont have the shipyards to build Capital ships in a hurry(anything less then 10 years).


While a balanced force approach gives you the infrastructure for both and if the need should arise you can expand one or both of them to meet your needs without most of the problems you would have if you are LAC centric force.

Sigs wrote:It will eventually get out that Manticore and Grayson have implemented techniques to lower their total crew's. It doesn't take a genius or some special technology to do so. How many of those 6,000 would be eliminated in a Manticoran SD?

We're not talking about Manticoran SDs, or SDs from some other source. We're talking about captured Scientist-Class SLN ships. The Scientist-class ships have been deemed unsuitable for automated operation -- whether to reduce crew size or to turn them into drones. (Consensus opinion in previous iterations of this thread.)

So, For a Scientist-class -- which has a normal complement a thousand sailors over pre-war Manticoran or Havenite crew size -- the reduction in crew possible with automation is probably in the dozens rather than the thousands.

Sigs wrote:You are asking nations which don't know or fully trust the power of a modern state of the art LAC from Manticore to put their lives and livelihoods on a LAC from haven that is intentionally dumbed down.

I'm not requiring them to get dumbed down LACs, that's your paranoia talking. I expect the GA to provide first or second generation Shrikes, Ferrets or Cimmeterres.

Sigs wrote:And lastly, let me ask you this:

How many first rate militaries in the world today have purely defensive weapons and no offensive power?

How do you convince an entire planet to put their future in a weapons mix that until yesterday was useless in their minds?

And how do you convince them that the gaping holes in their defences LAC's and Missiles would leave are not a reason to worry?

1) I'm not suggesting that a LACs + Missiles defensive installation is anything like a "First Rate Military."

2) You demonstrate the power of a new-model LAC and point out that this is the same sort of system you're providing your own outlying systems (in the case of GA suppliers; others can point to GA installations.)

NB: This is one place the captured Scientist-Class ships could be useful. Tow one to a potential customer, let them inspect it, and then melt it down into a ball of scrap with a Shrike.

3) You don't convince them that LACs + Missiles are the answer to all of their needs. You offer to sell them anything beyond the defensive installation at regular, un-discounted rates. You only need to convince them that LACs + Missiles are the minimum they need for defense.

Sigs wrote:And most of those entities are in one way or another tied with or are part of the GA.

And some, like Technodyne, are not "Haven-sector Navies." What they have to offer may not be up to even "Manticore Lite" but they are options for systems that don't want to deal with Manticore or the GA -- the Renaissance Factor, for example.

The RF is more likely to offer RF task-forces than independent defense systems to their clients and prospective members. The Andermani probably don't have competitive LACs, but could substitute destroyers or cruisers with extended range/MDM missiles for LACs.

I foresee a widespread and vigorous arms trade in the post-SL universe. Just who and what they have to offer and what systems are willing to spend money on, or what strings will be attached to any particular arms sale, is somethikng I can't predict. About the only thing I am willing to predict is that Scientist-Class SDs are NOT going to be a significant part of that trade. There are going to be too many cheaper and more effective options available to just about any system willing to do even rudimentary research.

I don't think it would be in Manticore's interest to help inspire an SD-focused arms race. The post-war environment would be a lot less fraught if every Battle Fleet ship was destroyed, scuttled, or scrapped. The more SDs floating around, the more likely it is that they're going to get used. The last thing they'd want is for the dissolution of the league to turn into a general melee among the successor states.

Rig them with ridimentry remote control and use them for clearing mine fields

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Yank/wreck their weapons, disable or lock out propulsion systems (after moving it where it needs to go), add additional environmental support, and use them as orbital prisons and/or semi-mobile POW camps.

RedBaron wrote:Yank/wreck their weapons, disable or lock out propulsion systems (after moving it where it needs to go), add additional environmental support, and use them as orbital prisons and/or semi-mobile POW camps.

Counterpoint: Find an uninhabited island or continent on Gryphon and dump them there. No dockyard work needed.

The E wrote:

RedBaron wrote:Yank/wreck their weapons, disable or lock out propulsion systems (after moving it where it needs to go), add additional environmental support, and use them as orbital prisons and/or semi-mobile POW camps.

Counterpoint: Find an uninhabited island or continent on Gryphon and dump them there. No dockyard work needed.

Why do you need POW camps, we already have them built for Haven POW's.

Deneb Accords probably won't let you pack Sollies in that tight

Even after 1st Manticore, the RMN wasn't collecting prisoners in quite such industrial quantities, so they wouldn't have the capacity. I don't believe even Cerberus has the infrastructure available.

saber964 wrote:
Why do you need POW camps, we already have them built for Haven POW's.

Louis R wrote:Deneb Accords probably won't let you pack Sollies in that tight

Even after 1st Manticore, the RMN wasn't collecting prisoners in quite such industrial quantities, so they wouldn't have the capacity. I don't believe even Cerberus has the infrastructure available.

saber964 wrote:
Why do you need POW camps, we already have them built for Haven POW's.

Could always resurrect the spirit of Cordelia Randsom. "Solarian prisoners? We have no records of any Solarian prisoners, surely you must be mistaken?"

Meanwhile in Cerberus, Hades is still an entire planet, and their prisoner camps numbered in the low thousands, so they have PLENTY of room to throw even more camps. Assuming, of course, that even the Republic of Haven even still maintains even a minimal prison there after Honor's mass breakout.

And of course, Manticore and Haven both, are too honorable and proud to actually abuse their prisoners, despite the screaming on Spindle that they already are being mistreated. Those poor, poor Solarians, being forced to live on tropical islands that may not be ultra-deluxe resorts, are still tropical islands.

I'm sure that the first set of Alliance ships that get forced to surrender, since I'm not putting it past RFC to figure out some way to do it. The SLN will probably end up acting in some manner, similar to StateSec during the Buttercup Offensive, basically abuse the high hell out of the prisoners to take out their fears and anger at "those cheating Manticorans!" on the prisoners that are in their reach.

Somtaaw wrote:

Could always resurrect the spirit of Cordelia Randsom. "Solarian prisoners? We have no records of any Solarian prisoners, surely you must be mistaken?"

Meanwhile in Cerberus, Hades is still an entire planet, and their prisoner camps numbered in the low thousands, so they have PLENTY of room to throw even more camps. Assuming, of course, that even the Republic of Haven even still maintains even a minimal prison there after Honor's mass breakout.

And of course, Manticore and Haven both, are too honorable and proud to actually abuse their prisoners, despite the screaming on Spindle that they already are being mistreated. Those poor, poor Solarians, being forced to live on tropical islands that may not be ultra-deluxe resorts, are still tropical islands.

I'm sure that the first set of Alliance ships that get forced to surrender, since I'm not putting it past RFC to figure out some way to do it. The SLN will probably end up acting in some manner, similar to StateSec during the Buttercup Offensive, basically abuse the high hell out of the prisoners to take out their fears and anger at "those cheating Manticorans!" on the prisoners that are in their reach.

If you can, send the prisoners back.

They are a logistical strain that you don't have to bear. No prisoners means there's no need to feed them, clothe them, guard them or supply medical care. By sending them back, they are a burden on your enemy instead of yourself.

If you aren't going to send them back on the premise that you want to deny the enemy the use of them as already trained personnel, then you have to treat them right.

If you don't, then what is making the enemy treat your people they are holding prisoner well?

Or to ask it another way, what is stopping the enemy from treating your people poorly?