Honorverse Deaths

cthia wrote:

WeirdlyWired wrote:Given hindsight and 20/20 vision and all? NOT fair. what you know at the time/what you should have known but were too arrogant to see is all you can base judgements on. Knowing the day before Grendlesbane, what was going to happen, yes he could have made better choices, but as none would be "good" choices, would it really matter in the end? Knowing Tourville's battle plan the day before First Manticore, yeah, he could have put up a more brilliant defense. Unfortunately RFC only grants HH prescience of the enemy's plans; and even then, only semi-omniscience.

Somtaaw wrote:Higgins wasn't there for First Manticore, he was still in the doghouse over Grendlesbane I think.

Higgins was in command of Home Fleet when Oyster Bay blew the crap out of everything... it was basically Grendlesbane all over again for him, except with massive collateral civilian casualties. Think how Honor felt, just from the military & civilian casualties, and knowing she'd been in Haven negotiating a peace treaty (absolutely nothing SHE could have done). And Higgins was in command, it was his job to stop things like that, regardless of the stealth feature and nobody seeing it.

If Higgins isn't having even half the doubts Honor had at the beginning of Flag in Exile, before High Admiral Matthews talks her into being a GSN Admiral, I'll eat my laptop. His confidence has to be in the toilet, and if he has a third catastrophy while he's in command, despite doing everything right, I can't see Higgins not suiciding.

He was never in the doghouse over Grendelsbane. Grendelsbane was the hard call but the right call. Higgins is forged out of the right metal, tempered with the right stuff.

Uhh, what? Higgins got beached almost before he even got back to Manticore, Janacek did that immediately. He was "rehabilitated" by the White Haven admiralty, but that doesn't mean he was immediately handed a command and shipped out. That's the most likely reason Higgins just happened to be available to take over Home Fleet after they could reconstitute it, and send Honor off to Haven.

And whether it was actually his "fault" or not, yes he would be blaming himself, it was his job to stop attacks. Grendlesbane he could have fought a little smarter, but Oyster Bay was a complete blindside. If Givens can blame herself and try repeatedly to resign, then Higgins most definitely blames himself and also tried to resign, and undoubtedly given the same reasons why Givens wasn't allowed to resign.

However feelings, and self-confidence issues are totally different than logical thought and being told (honestly) it wasn't your fault. And after going through two back to back ultra failures like he has, a third will break him just like Honor very nearly convinced herself after Pauls murder that she couldn't command again.


Terekhov's situation was completely different, there's no comparison, he failed in the previous war, smashed the same class that defeated him, THEN went on to the moment he needed approval. Look at his self-confidence issues, he'd outright admitted he'd had them to his Exec after hammering the Mars cruiser that he did it because of his demons. And look at how he had still been waking in nightmares of his immediate prior experience in command of a Queens ship... if he'd lost in Nuncio, he'd have been just as broken. He wouldn't have suicided over it, but he'd never again command a ship.

cthia wrote:

WeirdlyWired wrote:Given hindsight and 20/20 vision and all? NOT fair. what you know at the time/what you should have known but were too arrogant to see is all you can base judgements on. Knowing the day before Grendlesbane, what was going to happen, yes he could have made better choices, but as none would be "good" choices, would it really matter in the end? Knowing Tourville's battle plan the day before First Manticore, yeah, he could have put up a more brilliant defense. Unfortunately RFC only grants HH prescience of the enemy's plans; and even then, only semi-omniscience.

Somtaaw wrote:Higgins wasn't there for First Manticore, he was still in the doghouse over Grendlesbane I think.

Higgins was in command of Home Fleet when Oyster Bay blew the crap out of everything... it was basically Grendlesbane all over again for him, except with massive collateral civilian casualties. Think how Honor felt, just from the military & civilian casualties, and knowing she'd been in Haven negotiating a peace treaty (absolutely nothing SHE could have done). And Higgins was in command, it was his job to stop things like that, regardless of the stealth feature and nobody seeing it.

If Higgins isn't having even half the doubts Honor had at the beginning of Flag in Exile, before High Admiral Matthews talks her into being a GSN Admiral, I'll eat my laptop. His confidence has to be in the toilet, and if he has a third catastrophy while he's in command, despite doing everything right, I can't see Higgins not suiciding.

He was never in the doghouse over Grendelsbane. Grendelsbane was the hard call but the right call. Higgins is forged out of the right metal, tempered with the right stuff.

Somtaaw wrote:Uhh, what? Higgins got beached almost before he even got back to Manticore, Janacek did that immediately. He was "rehabilitated" by the White Haven admiralty, but that doesn't mean he was immediately handed a command and shipped out. That's the most likely reason Higgins just happened to be available to take over Home Fleet after they could reconstitute it, and send Honor off to Haven.

And whether it was actually his "fault" or not, yes he would be blaming himself, it was his job to stop attacks. Grendlesbane he could have fought a little smarter, but Oyster Bay was a complete blindside. If Givens can blame herself and try repeatedly to resign, then Higgins most definitely blames himself and also tried to resign, and undoubtedly given the same reasons why Givens wasn't allowed to resign.

However feelings, and self-confidence issues are totally different than logical thought and being told (honestly) it wasn't your fault. And after going through two back to back ultra failures like he has, a third will break him just like Honor very nearly convinced herself after Pauls murder that she couldn't command again.


Terekhov's situation was completely different, there's no comparison, he failed in the previous war, smashed the same class that defeated him, THEN went on to the moment he needed approval. Look at his self-confidence issues, he'd outright admitted he'd had them to his Exec after hammering the Mars cruiser that he did it because of his demons. And look at how he had still been waking in nightmares of his immediate prior experience in command of a Queens ship... if he'd lost in Nuncio, he'd have been just as broken. He wouldn't have suicided over it, but he'd never again command a ship.

I just don't see it that way. I never denied his feelings of guilt over his decisions. I never denied the DOW taking a serious confidence hit in Higgin's stock. It is all too human. As you've mentioned, even Honor had her own "Doubts and Demons." BUT... She wouldn't have suicided any more than Higgins.

Higgins was beached by the Janacek admiralty. J-A-N-A-C-E-K? Puh-lease! And yes, he was "rehabilitated" by the White Haven admiralty. So what? He did what he thought was right. He made the big call and it was the right call. Grendelsbane was the Janacek admiralty's fault.

Look, you and I can go round and round on this one, but I'll stand firm. Higgins could survive an introspection. His are the sort of demons one must learn to live with. He wanted to have done more than he could have under the circumstances. Yet he couldn't. Again, he's all too human. Yet he wouldn't have suicided. Honor had her own demons. Doubted herself. And there were times l... Yet she wouldn't have suicided.

Jarawalski had to be "rehabilitated." Don't know what the hell for in her case either. Some sort of "formalities" I don't understand either. I do suppose I acknowledge, however, that if one could school me on why Jarawalski "had to be" "rehabilitated" other than some sort of insane "formality" then I suppose there'd be hope for me.

I place Higgins and Jarawalski's actions pretty darn close to the actions of those Manticoran officers loyal to the Queen who would "suicide their career" on the spot for their beloved Star Nation because of their convictions -- their sense of loyalty, love and patriotic duty.

"Forgive me Elizabeth. I do this because I feel it should be done. I fully expect and understand should you decide to disavow my actions. What I do is for the honor of the Queen."

BBBBBBBUT. People with that type of metal don't suicide. Higgins has it. IMHO.

The military's a strange beast, and their blame system works.... oddly to say the least. And when you couple that, with "if a civilian fails their job, the worst that happens is usually they fail to get paid. If someone in the military fails their job, usually someone (or lots of someones) die."


And not everyone handles those demons that well after they get hammered with one large failure after another. I'm not saying that Higgins will absolutely 100% turn to suicide if he were in command somewhere and yet another spectacular failure happens. But I am saying that, that pulser dart's definitely going to be entering his mind as an option to stop it happening a fourth time.


And you bring up Jarulwalski... recall the conditions she went to meet with Honor? She wasn't just defensive, she was damn near broken, and it was only because Honor knew how stupid, abusive, and useless Santino was, with first-hand experience. And Jaruwalski was only "credited with" [at the time] being damn near a coward, and unprepared to face the enemy in a manner she couldn't defend against because Santino [and all others involved in the argument were dead, with no records]

MacGuiness returned with a dark, hawk-faced woman in an RMN commander's uniform. It wasn't hard to assume a more solemn expression, for the dark cloud of the other woman's emotions—a wary bitterness and dread, only slightly lightened by a small sense of curiosity—reached out to her like a harsh hand, and it was all she could do not to wince in sympathy.

snip

"It wasn't all that short, Your Grace." Jaruwalski's soprano sounded very much like Honor's own, but with a washed-out, beaten down undertone. "And to be honest, it wasn't as if I had a lot of other things to be doing anyway," Jaruwalski added with what was probably meant to be a smile.

snip

Jaruwalski gazed after him for a moment, then turned resolutely back to face Honor. There was something very like quiet defiance in her body language, and Honor hid another wince as she tasted the bitterness behind the other woman's dark eyes.

snip

She smiled and gave a slight, bitter toss of her head. "In fact, you're the first senior officer who hasn't seemed to be going out of her way to avoid seeing me, if you'll forgive my bluntness."

snip

Jaruwalski didn't—quite—blink, but Honor tasted a sudden watchful stillness at the commander's core. She'd answered Honor's summons unwillingly and come to this office wary and defensive, trying with forlorn pride to hide her inner wounds. It was clear she'd expected those wounds to be ripped open once again, but Honor's response had robbed her of that expectation. Now she didn't know just what Honor did want, and that made her feel uncertain and exposed. However much the contempt with which she'd been treated had hurt, at least it had been something she'd understood. And she dared not let herself hope this meeting might produce anything except more of the same.

Jaruwalski felt like shit, but her training demanded she didn't quite show it openly, but she was only a senior staffer. She definitely wasn't in a suicide state, but she also wasn't the Senior Officer, like Higgins was. Her job was to give the best advice she could, and ensure the flag officer she served had everything handled.

The Senior Officer, is exactly like Honor back in Yeltsin, or any of her other squadron/flag roles... if they're any good, they're going to feel the deaths of everyone they caused to die in action whether they win or lose. And failing to achieve the objective [protect the civilians] in addition to the deaths [military and civilian], in addition to having had that happen previously in failing to protect Grendlesbane, and failing to fight intelligently [Higgins practically shot every single crewman aboard his LACs and podnoughts personally].


That thing about stressor's comes to mind and them being multiplicative or somesuch. Higgins had a lot of stressors stuck into him by the end of Oyster Bay, he absolutely has to be near a breaking point. At the very least, if he 'fails' again, he's going to be looking at decades of psychotherapy, and at the worst he's gonna eat a dart depending on how severe his failure is. That's just human psychology there, one failure after another, and another, all with people dying because of YOUR actions [or lack thereof], with nothing recent to offset it is devastating and crippling in the extreme.

Somtaaw wrote:The military's a strange beast, and their blame system works.... oddly to say the least. And when you couple that, with "if a civilian fails their job, the worst that happens is usually they fail to get paid. If someone in the military fails their job, usually someone (or lots of someones) die."


And not everyone handles those demons that well after they get hammered with one large failure after another. I'm not saying that Higgins will absolutely 100% turn to suicide if he were in command somewhere and yet another spectacular failure happens. But I am saying that, that pulser dart's definitely going to be entering his mind as an option to stop it happening a fourth time.


And you bring up Jarulwalski... recall the conditions she went to meet with Honor? She wasn't just defensive, she was damn near broken, and it was only because Honor knew how stupid, abusive, and useless Santino was, with first-hand experience. And Jaruwalski was only "credited with" [at the time] being damn near a coward, and unprepared to face the enemy in a manner she couldn't defend against because Santino [and all others involved in the argument were dead, with no records]

MacGuiness returned with a dark, hawk-faced woman in an RMN commander's uniform. It wasn't hard to assume a more solemn expression, for the dark cloud of the other woman's emotions—a wary bitterness and dread, only slightly lightened by a small sense of curiosity—reached out to her like a harsh hand, and it was all she could do not to wince in sympathy.

snip

"It wasn't all that short, Your Grace." Jaruwalski's soprano sounded very much like Honor's own, but with a washed-out, beaten down undertone. "And to be honest, it wasn't as if I had a lot of other things to be doing anyway," Jaruwalski added with what was probably meant to be a smile.

snip

Jaruwalski gazed after him for a moment, then turned resolutely back to face Honor. There was something very like quiet defiance in her body language, and Honor hid another wince as she tasted the bitterness behind the other woman's dark eyes.

snip

She smiled and gave a slight, bitter toss of her head. "In fact, you're the first senior officer who hasn't seemed to be going out of her way to avoid seeing me, if you'll forgive my bluntness."

snip

Jaruwalski didn't—quite—blink, but Honor tasted a sudden watchful stillness at the commander's core. She'd answered Honor's summons unwillingly and come to this office wary and defensive, trying with forlorn pride to hide her inner wounds. It was clear she'd expected those wounds to be ripped open once again, but Honor's response had robbed her of that expectation. Now she didn't know just what Honor did want, and that made her feel uncertain and exposed. However much the contempt with which she'd been treated had hurt, at least it had been something she'd understood. And she dared not let herself hope this meeting might produce anything except more of the same.

Somtaaw wrote:Jaruwalski felt like shit, but her training demanded she didn't quite show it openly, but she was only a senior staffer. She definitely wasn't in a suicide state, but she also wasn't the Senior Officer, like Higgins was. Her job was to give the best advice she could, and ensure the flag officer she served had everything handled.

The Senior Officer, is exactly like Honor back in Yeltsin, or any of her other squadron/flag roles... if they're any good, they're going to feel the deaths of everyone they caused to die in action whether they win or lose. And failing to achieve the objective [protect the civilians] in addition to the deaths [military and civilian], in addition to having had that happen previously in failing to protect Grendlesbane, and failing to fight intelligently [Higgins practically shot every single crewman aboard his LACs and podnoughts personally].


That thing about stressor's comes to mind and them being multiplicative or somesuch. Higgins had a lot of stressors stuck into him by the end of Oyster Bay, he absolutely has to be near a breaking point. At the very least, if he 'fails' again, he's going to be looking at decades of psychotherapy, and at the worst he's gonna eat a dart depending on how severe his failure is. That's just human psychology there, one failure after another, and another, all with people dying because of YOUR actions [or lack thereof], with nothing recent to offset it is devastating and crippling in the extreme.

I completely agree with you that the kid's feeling a lot of pressure.

'Nooooooo one knowwwws the presSURE I feeeel' ...
sings Caparelli. But Higgins begs to differ.

However, where you and I disconnect, is in whether Higgins' form of guilt will psychologically affect him in a suicidal manner. IMO, no. It isn't the critical type of guilt from the critical type of failure. It would be different if it really was Higgin's fault. (The second point where you and I disconnect - as to whether fault is crucial to suicidal meanderings). Higgins' guilt is more like survivor's guilt, as is Jaruwalski's. It's a different type of beast. Depresses the hell out of you. Makes you sad as hell. Perhaps even to the point of withdrawing from society and becoming a recluse in the cold of Gryphon. But it won't make you commit hara-kiri.

OTOH, the Elvis Santino brand of incompetence-bred guilt is the self-destruct kind.


.

munroburton wrote:He could have declined to send his modern units into battle and withdrawn with the only shots fired at their own shipyards. It doesn't take a great stretch of imagination after Theisman's press conference and the pact with Erewhon to conclude that the new RHN was definitely combat capable against what they encountered during Buttercup.

However, that would have deprived the RMN of potentially valuable combat data. And it'd have been embarrassing if it turned out the Grendelsbane attack was a monumental bluff!

I agree. And while we didn't get the key parts of the Battle of Grendelsbane onscreen, the fact that Higgin's 7 SD(P)s were wiped out at 40 million km hints that he likely started probing the PSN defenses at long range; rather than assuming he had a monopoly on MDMs and trying to close to just outside SDM range in order to maximize the hit percentages from his limited missiles. Yes, he did think he had a range advantage, but I doubt he thought it was a 55 million km one.

But that's based on an assumption that the advantage would slowly tip further towards the PSN forces as the range closed; so I believe they'd have been perfectly willing to let the range drop to 25 million km or so before opening fire. That's why I think Higgin's SD(P)s fired first - probing for information rather that trying to get as close as possible to land the heaviest possible blow.

Unfortunately, even if my suspicions are true, they underestimated the firepower the several times more numerous PSN SD(P)s could bring at even quite extended range.



Sure with the benefits of perfect hindsight he could have ordered his SD(P)s to be even more cautious and lob largely ineffective fire from 70+ million km (utilizing ballistic segments) - but that probably seems overcautious even in the face of 2 or 3 to 1 odds.
So overall I think he tried to fight fairly smart - to attrit the enemy and, more importantly, to gather intelligence on their new capabilities that would be critical for Manticore to have to continue the war. (He had no way to know or suspect that Honor would come back from Marsh with even better intel on the PSN's new toys)

Jonathan_S wrote:I agree. And while we didn't get the key parts of the Battle of Grendelsbane onscreen, the fact that Higgin's 7 SD(P)s were wiped out at 40 million km hints that he likely started probing the PSN defenses at long range; rather than assuming he had a monopoly on MDMs and trying to close to just outside SDM range in order to maximize the hit percentages from his limited missiles. Yes, he did think he had a range advantage, but I doubt he thought it was a 55 million km one.

I'd forgotten about the range of that engagement. Certainly points that way.

However, your mention of limited missiles did make me wonder about something. Obviously, 7 first generation Medusas only have 3500 or so pods. But what about the system defense pods(were they in service then?) or any pod allotments for the unfinished SD(P)s?

munroburton wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:I agree. And while we didn't get the key parts of the Battle of Grendelsbane onscreen, the fact that Higgin's 7 SD(P)s were wiped out at 40 million km hints that he likely started probing the PSN defenses at long range; rather than assuming he had a monopoly on MDMs and trying to close to just outside SDM range in order to maximize the hit percentages from his limited missiles. Yes, he did think he had a range advantage, but I doubt he thought it was a 55 million km one.

I'd forgotten about the range of that engagement. Certainly points that way.

However, your mention of limited missiles did make me wonder about something. Obviously, 7 first generation Medusas only have 3500 or so pods. But what about the system defense pods(were they in service then?) or any pod allotments for the unfinished SD(P)s?

I just saw the mention that the Grendelsbane forts were never upgraded to fire MDMs - which implies (as crazy as it sounds) that then never got the MDM system defense pods. And they obviously didn't have the perimeter LAC bases that Zansibar did.

Janacek seems to have never spent a dime on upgrading the yard's defenses - they were still whatever what in place pre-Buttercup. Backed up by what was probably a far smaller fleet detachment than before the ceasefire - even if you count all the obsolete ships.


Can't remember if we were ever told why the under construction SD(P)s didn't have pod loads available to borrow - whether those were to be shipped in from Manticore, or whether Grendelsbane could build them but simply hadn't yet.

I can't remember if they were using flat-pack pods yet at that point, but IIRC those were the first have a system-defence mode, so there wouldn't have been any different pods for the task. OTOH, as pointed out, there essentially were no defences at Grendelsbane other than the mobile units - it would surprise me if there were any pods in-system not carried on Higgin's ships.

It's not clear if munitions were ever manufactured there, but I'd be surprised if the lines had been upgraded to anything current before the base was destroyed. If you recall, High Ridge and Co. were trying to keep the inescapable military spending inside the Kingdom where people could see it. Almost certainly, the plan was to complete the ships only to the point where they could be brought back to finish outfitting at home.

As for Higgins himself, I do feel he made one 'mistake': AFAICT, he started the engagement from the point "we can't be sure what we're facing" when his starting point should have been "Theisman sent what he needed to kill us. Let's see what we can do about that!" The problem with expecting him to say that, though, is that at that point Tom Theisman was a known quantity only to a few of the RMN's flag officers. Those who saw what he did with Breslau at Blackbird, and maybe a couple of the people who faced him with White Haven in 3rd Fleet during the Trevor's Star campaign. Higgins may have been with 3rd Flt, but he certainly wasn't at Blackbird.

Jonathan_S wrote:

munroburton wrote:
I'd forgotten about the range of that engagement. Certainly points that way.

However, your mention of limited missiles did make me wonder about something. Obviously, 7 first generation Medusas only have 3500 or so pods. But what about the system defense pods(were they in service then?) or any pod allotments for the unfinished SD(P)s?

I just saw the mention that the Grendelsbane forts were never upgraded to fire MDMs - which implies (as crazy as it sounds) that then never got the MDM system defense pods. And they obviously didn't have the perimeter LAC bases that Zansibar did.

Janacek seems to have never spent a dime on upgrading the yard's defenses - they were still whatever what in place pre-Buttercup. Backed up by what was probably a far smaller fleet detachment than before the ceasefire - even if you count all the obsolete ships.


Can't remember if we were ever told why the under construction SD(P)s didn't have pod loads available to borrow - whether those were to be shipped in from Manticore, or whether Grendelsbane could build them but simply hadn't yet.

WeirdlyWired wrote:

cthia wrote:Aside:
Could Higgins have done anything differently, yet better? Knowing what he knew at all times?

Given hindsight and 20/20 vision and all? NOT fair. what you know at the time/what you should have known but were too arrogant to see is all you can base judgements on. Knowing the day before Grendlesbane, what was going to happen, yes he could have made better choices, but as none would be "good" choices, would it really matter in the end? Knowing Tourville's battle plan the day before First Manticore, yeah, he could have put up a more brilliant defense. Unfortunately RFC only grants HH prescience of the enemy's plans; and even then, only semi-omniscience.

Which is why I stipulated 'knowing what he knew -- at the time. Each time.'

I don't think he would have done anything differently. Not knowing what he knew. The thing to note is that Higgins didn't panic when the Peeps came rolling in bringing a storm with "Operation Thunderbolt."

Since I started this rousing roundabout. To Higgins:Invictus Maneus.

He should retire to his villa on Sphinx. NOT because he is suicidal or has character flaws, But because the Gods have painted a bright flashing neon target on his ... backside. Yes he made no sub-optimum decisions, yes treecats named him Soul of Battle Armour.

At some point he becomes HODAD: Harbinger of Doom and Destruction. The legendary figure who brings catastrophe in his wake. He [figuratively, of course] eats the pulser dart to his career because he is a destabilizing influence on morale and unit cohesion. Through absolutely no fault of his own.