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Body Armor

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Re: Body Armor
Post by Captain Igloo   » Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:15 pm

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John Prigent wrote:I understand that the Roman Legions made day-long marches in full armour for days on end to get into action, while also carrying their personal gear,shields and weapons. How much did a Legionary's armour, shield, weapons and kit weigh? And yes, I do understand that they didn't carry spare ammo for their swords(but three pila not just one). I know several people who have marched the length of Hadrian's Wall in full armour and found it hard to do even without carrying any extra stuff.

Cheers

John



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Re: Body Armor
Post by DMcCunney   » Wed Sep 07, 2016 8:17 pm

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John Prigent wrote:I understand that the Roman Legions made day-long marches in full armour for days on end to get into action, while also carrying their personal gear,shields and weapons. How much did a Legionary's armour, shield, weapons and kit weigh? And yes, I do understand that they didn't carry spare ammo for their swords(but three pila not just one). I know several people who have marched the length of Hadrian's Wall in full armour and found it hard to do even without carrying any extra stuff.
Counting clothing, armor, weapons, and some food, the average load of a marching Legionnaire was about 60lbs. But weight distribution is important, and it was evenly distributed.

Also, Legionnaires spent a lot of time marching, and a good part of training was conditioning to be able to do that. I suspect a Legionnaire would consider your friends hopelessly out of shape.
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Dennis
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Re: Body Armor
Post by John Prigent   » Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:39 am

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Thanks for the weight figure! Although it wasn't _all_ evenly distributed, the 'yoke' with his pack, food, and impedimenta had to go on one shoulder and the shield wasn't as heavy on the other arm. Hence the tag 'Marius' Mules' for the weight a man had to carry. So how does that stand as a percentage of body weight, I wonder, for a 1st or 2nd century Roman Legionnaire (smaller and lighter than a 6' modern infantryman)? I accept your comment about the Romans' marching practice - one only has to look at the spacing between known marching fort sites to see how far they went in a day before turning to digging trenches and piling up turf walls. But don't modern 'leg infantry' still do regular distance marches?

I'm trying to understand the discrepancies and the complaints about modern weights.

Cheers, John

DMcCunney wrote:
John Prigent wrote:I understand that the Roman Legions made day-long marches in full armour for days on end to get into action, while also carrying their personal gear,shields and weapons. How much did a Legionary's armour, shield, weapons and kit weigh? And yes, I do understand that they didn't carry spare ammo for their swords(but three pila not just one). I know several people who have marched the length of Hadrian's Wall in full armour and found it hard to do even without carrying any extra stuff.
Counting clothing, armor, weapons, and some food, the average load of a marching Legionnaire was about 60lbs. But weight distribution is important, and it was evenly distributed.

Also, Legionnaires spent a lot of time marching, and a good part of training was conditioning to be able to do that. I suspect a Legionnaire would consider your friends hopelessly out of shape.
_______
Dennis
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Re: Body Armor
Post by jgnfld   » Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:40 am

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John Prigent wrote:Thanks for the weight figure! Although it wasn't _all_ evenly distributed, the 'yoke' with his pack, food, and impedimenta had to go on one shoulder and the shield wasn't as heavy on the other arm. Hence the tag 'Marius' Mules' for the weight a man had to carry. So how does that stand as a percentage of body weight, I wonder, for a 1st or 2nd century Roman Legionnaire (smaller and lighter than a 6' modern infantryman)? I accept your comment about the Romans' marching practice - one only has to look at the spacing between known marching fort sites to see how far they went in a day before turning to digging trenches and piling up turf walls. But don't modern 'leg infantry' still do regular distance marches?

I'm trying to understand the discrepancies and the complaints about modern weights.

Cheers, John...


Don't know about infantry as a whole, but Rangers, for example, average 5'9" and 175 lbs. http://www.soc.mil/USASOCHQ/Public%20Af ... rofile.pdf

I've never met a SEAL that was much over 6 and it certainly is not the average. I think they are in the same range as Rangers.

The one or two I think might be JTF2 types in my son's Canadian Forces circle are small as well, though Canada keeps all JTF2's identities classified.

'Roided up overmuscled comic book soldiers just don't have the endurance needed.
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Re: Body Armor
Post by DMcCunney   » Thu Sep 08, 2016 2:31 pm

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John Prigent wrote:Thanks for the weight figure! Although it wasn't _all_ evenly distributed, the 'yoke' with his pack, food, and impedimenta had to go on one shoulder and the shield wasn't as heavy on the other arm. Hence the tag 'Marius' Mules' for the weight a man had to carry. So how does that stand as a percentage of body weight, I wonder, for a 1st or 2nd century Roman Legionnaire (smaller and lighter than a 6' modern infantryman)? I accept your comment about the Romans' marching practice - one only has to look at the spacing between known marching fort sites to see how far they went in a day before turning to digging trenches and piling up turf walls. But don't modern 'leg infantry' still do regular distance marches?

I'm trying to understand the discrepancies and the complaints about modern weights.

Modern infantry tend to be bigger than the Roman Legionnaires were, but depending on just who they are, still do distance marches. (Rangers in particular, given the sorts of things they get called upon to do.)

And I think the load for a modern infantryman is likely closer to 100lbs.

Being able to march long distances with a full load was a critical requirement for a Legionnaire. And the famous Roman roads were a principal reason the Empire could expand and persist. They provided a well maintained surface on which Legions could march under optimum conditions.

(RFC hasn't gone into detail about Safehold High Road construction, but I suspect it bears a strong resemblance to what the Romans did.)
_______
Dennis
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Re: Body Armor
Post by Annachie   » Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:11 pm

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Iirc, average height at the time would have been about 5'6 or 5'7. Minimum height for a legeonary was around 5'5.

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Re: Body Armor
Post by OlorinNight   » Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:38 am

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I'm not sure if Safehold has already achieved a technological level allowing it to create "modern" bullet-proof jacket and all. However, it has been mentionned earlier that, due to the lack HE, most of the threats are low velocity projectiles. And the EoC will probably soon be able to design something that would provide reasonnable protection against that sort of projectiles.

And since the Allies are heavily outnumbered, devising something that could save the lives of their soldiers seems a really smart move.
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Re: Body Armor
Post by imperatorzor   » Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:23 am

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Silverwall wrote:Body armour without plates is worthless against bullets in a full power rifle environment.

Shrapnal is a thing. The french did not introduce helmets during the Great War to stop bullets, but to stop shrapnel wounds in the head. In so doing they cut their casualties sugnifigantly.

Zor
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Re: Body Armor
Post by saber964   » Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:38 pm

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FYI most SpecFor troopers average between 5ft 6in and 5ft 8in in height and 160-180lbs in weight. You basic infantryman carries a basic load of 60-75lbs with some specialized troops carrying up to 150lbs. The ones carrying the heaviest loads are mostly medics, whose aid kit can weigh 70-80lbs.
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Re: Body Armor
Post by jgnfld   » Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:49 pm

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saber964 wrote:FYI most SpecFor troopers average between 5ft 6in and 5ft 8in in height and 160-180lbs in weight. You basic infantryman carries a basic load of 60-75lbs with some specialized troops carrying up to 150lbs. The ones carrying the heaviest loads are mostly medics, whose aid kit can weigh 70-80lbs.



My son recently switched from infantry to Canadian Forces medic (reserves). His loaded pack is scary. Waayyy bigger than his own upper body.
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