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Honorverse Deaths

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Re: Honorverse Deaths
Post by roseandheather   » Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:17 am

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Somtaaw wrote:
Daryl wrote:I'm waiting for President Eloise Pritchart's death. Mainly because I want to test if I can hear Rose's scream all the way down here in Australia.




Oooh, that's cold :lol: :lol: :lol: I got hypothermia just reading that :lol:


One of the deaths that hit me fairly hard was Andy Venizelos. He wasn't one of Honor's Armsmen, but he chose to die as one, to cover Honor's escape.

Another one was Sarah Flanagan, in the Tequila system, victim of the Thunderbolt sneak offensive. Busted her ass off as a butterbar to get squadron command, soaking up LAC training up in Eighth Fleet like a sponge. And her "reward" for being so hungry to be a good LAC commander, was being posted to a backwater, worthless Tequila system, and under the command of useless political appointees.

Along with Sarah Flanagan is pretty much all the rest of the RMN who were good officers, disgusted at the political appointee's, who died in Thunderbolt, she's just their leader in my mind as one of the first to die.


And [sorry rose, this is another whammy] honestly, I think Higgins needs a well-deserved (honorable) death. He's got the crap blown out of his fleet first at Grendlesbane, then later he was the poor, unfortunate sucker in charge of Home Fleet when Oyster Bay hits. If rose doesn't manage to get him shipped off with some lady, he needs an honorable death to give his broken heart some relief of having gotten something right for once.

I'm essentially picturing something along the lines of Honor's "living sidewall" trick to protect Benjamin and Elizabeth. Something that lets him die both with honor, and knowing that he Did It RIGHT before he dies, whether to injuries or a Giscard style blastwave heading towards him.



I'd run to hide, but with rose I'd only die tired and in the open for making that suggestion.


My God, it's like you all think I'm some sort of vengeful serial killer or something!

...I wish I could say you were wrong. :twisted: 8-)
~*~


I serve at the pleasure of President Pritchart.

Javier & Eloise
"You'll remember me when the west wind moves upon the fields of barley..."
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Re: Honorverse Deaths
Post by Somtaaw   » Mon Sep 19, 2016 1:08 pm

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roseandheather wrote:
My God, it's like you all think I'm some sort of vengeful serial killer or something!

...I wish I could say you were wrong. :twisted: 8-)



Only because we know how fiercely you defend your shippers :lol:


And I stand by my last one, if you don't manage to get Higgins shipped with some lovely lady, he needs an honorable death where he knows he did it right and can die, if not happy at least content knowing he died well. Poor guy's just had too much bad luck to suffer another 'failure' and not end up eating a pulser dart like Janacek did.
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Re: Honorverse Deaths
Post by cthia   » Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:13 pm

cthia
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Somtaaw wrote:
roseandheather wrote:
My God, it's like you all think I'm some sort of vengeful serial killer or something!

...I wish I could say you were wrong. :twisted: 8-)



Only because we know how fiercely you defend your shippers :lol:


And I stand by my last one, if you don't manage to get Higgins shipped with some lovely lady, he needs an honorable death where he knows he did it right and can die, if not happy at least content knowing he died well. Poor guy's just had too much bad luck to suffer another 'failure' and not end up eating a pulser dart like Janacek did.

Higgins would never eat a pulsar dart. He isn't the type. He has too much of the right kind of metal. Besides, his conscience is clear. He always did everything right, regardless of the outcome.

OTOH, Janacek's conscience?; What conscience?

There is absolutely NO WAY IN HELL Janacek would have been able to look anyone in the eye ever again. Especially Elizabeth. Some deaths came much too easily. It would have been unbearably torturous for Janacek had he lived, therefore fitting.

Aside:
Could Higgins have done anything differently, yet better? Knowing what he knew at all times?

.
Last edited by cthia on Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse Deaths
Post by WeirdlyWired   » Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:46 pm

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cthia wrote:Aside:
Could Higgins have done anything differently, yet better? Knowing what he knew at all times?



Given hindsight and 20/20 vision and all? NOT fair. what you know at the time/what you should have known but were too arrogant to see is all you can base judgements on. Knowing the day before Grendlesbane, what was going to happen, yes he could have made better choices, but as none would be "good" choices, would it really matter in the end? Knowing Tourville's battle plan the day before First Manticore, yeah, he could have put up a more brilliant defense. Unfortunately RFC only grants HH prescience of the enemy's plans; and even then, only semi-omniscience.
Helas,chou, Je m'en fache.
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Re: Honorverse Deaths
Post by WeirdlyWired   » Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:04 pm

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roseandheather wrote:[It's ok, Fallsfromtrees. Weirdly is new here, and I haven't been around terribly much recently. He(?) shouldn't be expected to know just how violently protective I am of Havenite characters. :mrgreen:


Thanx for being gentle to the Noob. But so not a fan of Cordelia Ransome, St. Just and the rest of his crowd, well maybe Black Victor gets a pass.

Paul Tankersley: Yes sad, but all first loves end badly. At least Honor got to bury her biggest ghost .

Steading Children (and bus load of children in SoV) Way sad but... HELEN: I always hated manpower, but since I got to know Paulo, its different. ABIGAIL: Yeah its more personal when its a friend.

So many good choices. Anyone that served with Honor OBS, the Solaran idiots-not that went down with Bing and Crandall. All of Fillareta's fleet, especially since he wanted to surrender.

Sorry RFC- Detweiller gets 0 humanity points after that one. And the "collateral damage to hide te evacuation of his precious onion. His death? Not even sufficient repayment. Alas, poor Albrecht, I knew him ... NOT
Helas,chou, Je m'en fache.
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Re: Honorverse Deaths
Post by Somtaaw   » Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:14 pm

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WeirdlyWired wrote:
cthia wrote:Aside:
Could Higgins have done anything differently, yet better? Knowing what he knew at all times?



Given hindsight and 20/20 vision and all? NOT fair. what you know at the time/what you should have known but were too arrogant to see is all you can base judgements on. Knowing the day before Grendlesbane, what was going to happen, yes he could have made better choices, but as none would be "good" choices, would it really matter in the end? Knowing Tourville's battle plan the day before First Manticore, yeah, he could have put up a more brilliant defense. Unfortunately RFC only grants HH prescience of the enemy's plans; and even then, only semi-omniscience.


Higgins wasn't there for First Manticore, he was still in the doghouse over Grendlesbane I think.

Higgins was in command of Home Fleet when Oyster Bay blew the crap out of everything... it was basically Grendlesbane all over again for him, except with massive collateral civilian casualties. Think how Honor felt, just from the military & civilian casualties, and knowing she'd been in Haven negotiating a peace treaty (absolutely nothing SHE could have done). And Higgins was in command, it was his job to stop things like that, regardless of the stealth feature and nobody seeing it.

If Higgins isn't having even half the doubts Honor had at the beginning of Flag in Exile, before High Admiral Matthews talks her into being a GSN Admiral, I'll eat my laptop. His confidence has to be in the toilet, and if he has a third catastrophy while he's in command, despite doing everything right, I can't see Higgins not suiciding.
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Re: Honorverse Deaths
Post by WeirdlyWired   » Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:43 pm

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Its 1336 hrs here. Too much Monday, too little coffee (only my 5th cup). Yeah, of course. :oops: :oops: :oops:
Still have to be pretty omniscient to see either one coming. Maybe he should retire to his chalet on Sphynx? No point in actively tempting fate.
I suppose RFC could send him off to Silesia just in time to be caught by one of those wonderfully devastating FF (?) commerce raids. :roll:
Helas,chou, Je m'en fache.
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Re: Honorverse Deaths
Post by cthia   » Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:45 pm

cthia
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WeirdlyWired wrote:
cthia wrote:Aside:
Could Higgins have done anything differently, yet better? Knowing what he knew at all times?



Given hindsight and 20/20 vision and all? NOT fair. what you know at the time/what you should have known but were too arrogant to see is all you can base judgements on. Knowing the day before Grendlesbane, what was going to happen, yes he could have made better choices, but as none would be "good" choices, would it really matter in the end? Knowing Tourville's battle plan the day before First Manticore, yeah, he could have put up a more brilliant defense. Unfortunately RFC only grants HH prescience of the enemy's plans; and even then, only semi-omniscience.
Somtaaw wrote:Higgins wasn't there for First Manticore, he was still in the doghouse over Grendlesbane I think.

Higgins was in command of Home Fleet when Oyster Bay blew the crap out of everything... it was basically Grendlesbane all over again for him, except with massive collateral civilian casualties. Think how Honor felt, just from the military & civilian casualties, and knowing she'd been in Haven negotiating a peace treaty (absolutely nothing SHE could have done). And Higgins was in command, it was his job to stop things like that, regardless of the stealth feature and nobody seeing it.

If Higgins isn't having even half the doubts Honor had at the beginning of Flag in Exile, before High Admiral Matthews talks her into being a GSN Admiral, I'll eat my laptop. His confidence has to be in the toilet, and if he has a third catastrophy while he's in command, despite doing everything right, I can't see Higgins not suiciding.

He was never in the doghouse over Grendelsbane. Grendelsbane was the hard call but the right call. Higgins is forged out of the right metal, tempered with the right stuff. Some people don't commit suicide. They go and take it out on their enemies. They feed off of it. I wholehoggedly agree that Higgins need his one chance to finally do this. But he won't ever suicide. No more than Terekov would have even if he hadn't finally silenced his doubters.

Do you think Terekov would have eaten a dart had things gone additionally wrong for him in the cluster and Khumalo hadn't decided to back him?

Nah...

Some people have broad enough shoulders and paint with bold enough strokes.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse Deaths
Post by munroburton   » Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:57 pm

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WeirdlyWired wrote:
cthia wrote:Aside:
Could Higgins have done anything differently, yet better? Knowing what he knew at all times?



Given hindsight and 20/20 vision and all? NOT fair. what you know at the time/what you should have known but were too arrogant to see is all you can base judgements on. Knowing the day before Grendlesbane, what was going to happen, yes he could have made better choices, but as none would be "good" choices, would it really matter in the end? Knowing Tourville's battle plan the day before First Manticore, yeah, he could have put up a more brilliant defense. Unfortunately RFC only grants HH prescience of the enemy's plans; and even then, only semi-omniscience.


He could have declined to send his modern units into battle and withdrawn with the only shots fired at their own shipyards. It doesn't take a great stretch of imagination after Theisman's press conference and the pact with Erewhon to conclude that the new RHN was definitely combat capable against what they encountered during Buttercup.

However, that would have deprived the RMN of potentially valuable combat data. And it'd have been embarrassing if it turned out the Grendelsbane attack was a monumental bluff!
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Re: Honorverse Deaths
Post by saber964   » Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:14 pm

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Here is what I think is going to happen to ADMF Allen Higgins. He will not be relieved of command except as a normal routine transfer, but he will not be given another fleet command or otherwise a major fleet unit. What will happen is he will be transferred to the foreign office and given a prestigious but slightly out of the way diplomatic post like ambassador to Haven or maybe to the newly freed Kingdom of Meyers. Or he could be given command of the Mesa occupation force.
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