"Obsolete SDs" Waste not...

Short Victorious War, Ch 29 wrote:Which should still be more than adequate, for one thing was certain: the delay to query the Argus net's latest data had confirmed that Parks wasn't here now. The platforms didn't have the reach to see anything within ten light-minutes or so of the primary, but they would certainly have noted anything that came in far enough out to clear Hancock's hyper limit, and nothing heavier than a cruiser had.

Chin's task group would more than suffice to eliminate any Manty battlecruisers—and their base—and if it turned out after all that this was some sort of subtle trap, he refused to let it close upon the core of his task force's true fighting power.

Louis R wrote:Where on earth did you get the idea that Rollins had to detour to check the net, or that he had to do any sort of sneaking to do so?

Well, I guess it could be argued that he detoured, since he came in 35lm out instead of the 20 or so that would comfortably clear the hyperlimit. But he most certainly wasn't sneaky about it. In fact, if the Manties has been given long enough, they might even have deduced that the delay after arrival that they were scratching their heads over was to query some sort of reconnaissance system. Hard to say, since it would have been something of a leap. That, however, is neither here nor there - the key point is that he came in to the system at a location where he could query Argus to see if anything had changed, and did so. And, according to SVW "the delay to query the Argus net's latest data had confirmed that Parks wasn't here now. The platforms didn't have the reach to see anything within ten light-minutes or so of the primary, but they would certainly have noted anything that came in far enough out to clear Hancock's hyper limit, and nothing heavier than a cruiser had." Which means I don't quite get how you think that any number of DNs could have snuck into the system, either.

Somtaaw wrote:Rollins moved when he thought everything else had left. Danislav arrived with a 10 ship strong squadron, reinforced by an extra division Manticore managed to scare up before Danislav departed. That single division could also have been sent on ahead, arriving before Danislav, and quite possibly even before Rollins. Which actually would have meant Rollins couldn't have known until he arrived and checked the sensor net prior to his "big" arrival.

Which actually is one of those things that glossed over, they were sending single light cruisers out to check them, and they had to come coasting in for days just to get close.... but Rollins took 3 squadrons of SD's, a squadron each of DN and BC + full screen. And NOBODY spotted that hyper event prior to them arriving on a "least-time course from Seaford Nine", despite that detour to check the Argus net?

Aside from that glaring plot hole, if Rollins could have gotten close enough to query the Argus net without being detected, a single division of DN's could have arrived early and been missed by the Argus net, leading to Chin being sent on ahead as planned. The end force actually wouldn't have changed, Danislav had 10 DN's when he arrived in the books, if the extra's had arrived early, Task Group Hancock-001 would have had 2 DN's in order of battle, plus Danislav would have arrived with 8 for a total of 10.

And in this timeline, Rollins actually would have gotten screwed because when he realized 2 DN's had ambushed Chin's 8, he would immediately have started moving to assist and been deep in the Hancock gravity well when Admiral Parks showed up. Instead of having already gone to maxium evasion when Danislav arrives and hypered out just before Parks could engage him.

This chain of events would have reverted back to the book plot timeline. Parks plus Danislav would still have moved on the weak Seaford to crush it, returned back to Hancock (and coincidentally encountering Coatsworth thinking Rollins holds the system) and book plot continues on with Field of Dishonor.

Somtaaw wrote:It says it in plain language, Rollins detoured to double-check the net for Hancock right in the books. It didn't specify he snuck in to check it, but I inferred that because prior to the Hancock strike, they were sending singleton light cruisers in on week long ballistic stealth runs to pick up the data, Rollins with his multiple wallers also had to sneak.

Short Victorious War, Ch 29 wrote:Which should still be more than adequate, for one thing was certain: the delay to query the Argus net's latest data had confirmed that Parks wasn't here now. The platforms didn't have the reach to see anything within ten light-minutes or so of the primary, but they would certainly have noted anything that came in far enough out to clear Hancock's hyper limit, and nothing heavier than a cruiser had.

Short Victorious War, Ch 28 wrote:"The outer sensor net's just reported a hyper footprint, Ma'am—a big one, about thirty-five light-minutes out from the primary. It's right on the mark for a least-time approach from Seaford."

[...]

Sarnow's green eyes switched back to Chandler. "Do we have a projected vector for them, Commander?"
"Not yet, Sir. They made a very low-velocity transit, and they've been sitting more or less at rest relative to the primary ever since."
"At that range?" The admiral's eyebrows arched, and he and Honor regarded one another with surprised speculation. No shipboard sensor could see Hancock's inner system from that range, so what were the Peeps waiting for? Assuming they didn't know about the FTL sensor net, they should have started building the highest velocity they could before light-speed transmissions from the out-system sensor platforms warned the defenders of their arrival.

Weird Harold wrote:

Sigs wrote:But you are missing the point because these ships are both powerful weapons platforms and obsolete targets, just depends who is controlling them. If it is the SLN they are obsolete targets because the GA has much better equipment, but if it is the GA's allies its a whole different story because they would be facing equal or worse equipment from the League.

No, I'm NOT missing the point.

IMHO, the captured SLN SDs have the reputation of powerful weapons platforms, but the reality of wooden square-riggers in a post-Dreadnought world. Especially in the hands of Battle Fleet crews.

Gifted to systems without existing SDFs and the infrastructure to maintain and supply such manpower intensive dinosaurs, they won't be much more effective.

Gifted to a very few systems with exceptional military leaders, and OJT Crew with a couple of months to shakedown, might be competitive with a Battle Fleet crew.

Everyone buys into the SLN's reputation for having the best warships in human space, but RFC has shown us glimpses of poor training, poor maintenance, poor readiness, and a host of other Battle Fleet failings. The inflated reputation of SLN SDs is part of the same set of "Emperor's New Cloths" typified by the Fleet 2000 upgrades.

Eagleeye wrote:All systems who are able to maintain SDs already have SDs in their SDFs. And I doubt, that these sytems are willing to pay money for vessels who have proven to be insufficient in a modern war. Instead they want the most modern ships they can lay their hands on. Say, something around BC(P)s or modern CAs. Vessels, they can easily work with and have a chance to man and maintain (with help by the sellers they bought from - Manticore, Haven, Erewhon). Like the Maya-Sector. But the Maya-Sector is a special case, because Maya most definitely can maintain their new SD(P)s, because of their treaty with Erewhon. And because they have the economic power to support such a navy.

Systems without SDs don't want them. Mostly because they can't man them sufficiently, but also because they most probably don't have the logistics to maintain them. After all: who would sell them missiles, after the one in the magazines (assuming Manticore let them there at all) are used? Or other parts you have to change regularly to make sure the SDs are remaining in something similar to a working condition? Manticore? I think not. Why should they? And, by the way, if Manticore really would intend to sell SDs at all, why should they sell such crap? Instead of their own Gryphon- or King Williams-Class SDs? Which are battle proven and predictably better than Scientists or Vegas?

Jonathan_S wrote:Though I guess it's something of a matter of opinion as to whether dropping out of hyper 10+ LM early, on a direct line flight path, is a detour or not. Certainly, once having done so, sitting at rest relative to the primary while waiting for Argus net reports to filter in from around the periphery is a delay (or an additional delay)


Once he had the latest info from Argus, including the paucity of Hancock's remaining defenders, he detached his relatively quicker DNs to deal with them. The only tricky thing about his trip to Hancock is that he slipped 6 CLs (under Ogilve in PNS Napoleon) out early to bounce from hyper on the 3 RMN CLs dispatched from Hancock to picket him. Knocking those out deprived Hancock of early warning of his approach.

Eagleeye wrote:All systems who are able to maintain SDs already have SDs in their SDFs. And I doubt, that these systems are willing to pay money for vessels who have proven to be insufficient in a modern war. Instead they want the most modern ships they can lay their hands on. Say, something around BC(P)s or modern CAs. Vessels, they can easily work with and have a chance to man and maintain (with help by the sellers they bought from - Manticore, Haven, Erewhon). Like the Maya-Sector. But the Maya-Sector is a special case, because Maya most definitely can maintain their new SD(P)s, because of their treaty with Erewhon. And because they have the economic power to support such a navy.

Systems without SDs don't want them. Mostly because they can't man them sufficiently, but also because they most probably don't have the logistics to maintain them. After all: who would sell them missiles, after the one in the magazines (assuming Manticore let them there at all) are used? Or other parts you have to change regularly to make sure the SDs are remaining in something similar to a working condition? Manticore? I think not. Why should they? And, by the way, if Manticore really would intend to sell SDs at all, why should they sell such crap? Instead of their own Gryphon- or King Williams-Class SDs? Which are battle proven and predictably better than Scientists or Vegas?

Jonathan_S wrote:There are probably a handful of individual exceptions; for example some systems with nothing bigger than a BC in their SDF (because they previously felt that was sufficient for their security) might be able to fairly quickly scale up their support infrastructure to handle SDs. (At least assuming they already had service / repair yards for them. If they purchased their BCs from an outside yard and contracted all major maintenance then they'd also be in a pickle if they lost the relationship with that other system's yard)

But somebody who only had LACs (which is apparently far more common) would be very unlikely to develop the skills and infrastructure to maintain SDs within even a few years. (And given the ease which which LACs can be freighted about seem even more likely to have had all major maintenance done back at the yard they'd purchased them from)

So you're probably fairly correct - most systems that lack SDs also lack the ability to service or maintain SDs. (And even some systems with an SD squadron or two might not normally build them or perform major yard maintenance on them)



Still I'm of the opinion that there likely will be at least a few systems that'll want those old SDs. And as long as you're sure they won't go commit atrocities on their neighbors with them I'd be perfectly happy for Manticore to unload them. (Even if they suspect the system won't be able to keep up the maintenance)

Sigs wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:There are probably a handful of individual exceptions; for example some systems with nothing bigger than a BC in their SDF (because they previously felt that was sufficient for their security) might be able to fairly quickly scale up their support infrastructure to handle SDs. (At least assuming they already had service / repair yards for them. If they purchased their BCs from an outside yard and contracted all major maintenance then they'd also be in a pickle if they lost the relationship with that other system's yard)

But somebody who only had LACs (which is apparently far more common) would be very unlikely to develop the skills and infrastructure to maintain SDs within even a few years. (And given the ease which which LACs can be freighted about seem even more likely to have had all major maintenance done back at the yard they'd purchased them from)

So you're probably fairly correct - most systems that lack SDs also lack the ability to service or maintain SDs. (And even some systems with an SD squadron or two might not normally build them or perform major yard maintenance on them)



Still I'm of the opinion that there likely will be at least a few systems that'll want those old SDs. And as long as you're sure they won't go commit atrocities on their neighbors with them I'd be perfectly happy for Manticore to unload them. (Even if they suspect the system won't be able to keep up the maintenance)

Look at Grayson as an example, they went from a fleet made of obsolete cruisers and destroyers to a fleet of SD's in a relatively short time. Admittedly they had a lot of help from Manticore but they also started far behind technologically and industrially then most core and shell worlds if not all of them. Many of the core and shell worlds as mentioned by the mandarins have the means to build respectable fleets if motivated properly and what better motivation than the disintegration of the SLN and the disappearance of their security.

Those SD's are there to provide the core around which a fleet will be build and to be essentially a bicycle with training wheels, you learn how to operate the ships, learn how to operate as a force, build the infrastructure and training system etc... And to be fair Manticore has experience building up its allies from nothing to a useful and competent fleet. And most of those allies were at best a third world country compared to a core or a shell world.