Discussions on raiding...

isaac_newton wrote:
There's also the point that the Havenite ships up against the LACs were actually pretty experienced and battle hardend, and they still got walloped initially. That is certainly is not true of the SLN and will take quite some time to recognise and overcome!

kzt wrote:I think David has implied that they wrote it as an amendment the SL constitution because it was a way around the veto process.

Which of courses raises other thoughts about the future of the SL...

Echoes of Honor wrote:There wouldn't be any internal Solarian debate, no arguments or resolutions or declarations, for none would be needed. Enforcement of the Eridani Edict had been part of the League's fundamental law for five hundred and three years, and the League Navy's standing orders were clear: any government or star nation or rogue mercenary outfit which indiscriminately bombarded an inhabited planet or directed a bombardment of any sort against a planetary population which had not first been summoned to surrender would be destroyed.
[...]
Except that the Solarian League, having experienced the bitter horrors of trying to clean up after such an atrocity on one of its member worlds, had not only unilaterally issued the Eridani Edict but incorporated it as Amendment Ninety-Seven of the League Constitution.

War of Honor wrote:And even that was only because the edict's proponents had used the Solarian Constitution's referendum provisions to do an end run around the Assembly and amend it to incorporate the edict into the League's fundamental law after the horrific casualties of the Eridani Incident.

Jonathan_S wrote:

kzt wrote:I think David has implied that they wrote it as an amendment the SL constitution because it was a way around the veto process.

Which of courses raises other thoughts about the future of the SL...

Some relivant text-ev

Echoes of Honor wrote:There wouldn't be any internal Solarian debate, no arguments or resolutions or declarations, for none would be needed. Enforcement of the Eridani Edict had been part of the League's fundamental law for five hundred and three years, and the League Navy's standing orders were clear: any government or star nation or rogue mercenary outfit which indiscriminately bombarded an inhabited planet or directed a bombardment of any sort against a planetary population which had not first been summoned to surrender would be destroyed.
[...]
Except that the Solarian League, having experienced the bitter horrors of trying to clean up after such an atrocity on one of its member worlds, had not only unilaterally issued the Eridani Edict but incorporated it as Amendment Ninety-Seven of the League Constitution.

War of Honor wrote:And even that was only because the edict's proponents had used the Solarian Constitution's referendum provisions to do an end run around the Assembly and amend it to incorporate the edict into the League's fundamental law after the horrific casualties of the Eridani Incident.

I'd almost forgotten about the referendum provisions bit. That does sound like it was a way to dodge the Assembly veto process.

Certainly the way the ammendment is worded it bypasses any requirement for debate or voting within the Assembly before the Edict is enforced. So there's no way to veto the enforcement of the Edict; but until you mentioned it I hadn't remembered that the Assembly might not have gotten any vote on creating it either.

As you say, this referendum mechanism (assuming they haven't dismantled it in the intervening time) might open interesting options within the League despite the divided Assembly. Guess it depends on how the process works, and how unified the people that might attempt to utilize it might be.

“Excuse me, Mister Frinkelo,” Neng put in, “but this is exactly what the Eridani Edict is intended to prevent, and the Constitution obligates the League to enforce the Eridani Edict, not violate it!”
“I’d love to tell the locals that,” Osborne said bitterly. “But Attorney General MacGwyer’s already pointed out to me that the Eridani Edict specifically exempts planetary governments dealing with insurrection and civil war. And Secretary of War Boyle’s assured me that he’s prepared to sign off on the target list as constituting actual military objectives, not simply terror strikes.” He raised one palm-up hand into his com’s field of view in a gesture of helplessness. “So the bottom line is that they really can ‘request’ this.”

kzt wrote:

Louis R wrote:mmmmm...
Didn't realise you had copies of the Edict and associated statutes, regulations and case law. Do

The part about having to warn and demand surrender before bombarding planets. And the total prohibition against striking population centers with no military purpose. You could read what David wrote on that.

But we have not yet seen any SLN ship refuse to, without warning, bombard populated civilian areas that had no military purpose when given some vague "don't worry, it's ok" explanation by somone over the radio. So what evidence do you have that they will ever find anything that they can't justify to themselves? Please, provide this.

blackjack217 wrote:

Somtaaw wrote:Already discussed in another thread I believe. Without being more; shall we say persuasive than normal, it's rather doubtful Amos Parnell will willingly pass along information that shafts Haven like revealing Bolthole's location, or general vicinity.

Parnell was really pissed off with Pierre's CPS, because they're the ones who betrayed and backstabbed Haven, and his Navy's honor smeared to stop them, not to mention throwing him on Hades for quite a few years.

He probably does not have any burning hatred of the Republic of Haven, because it's brought Haven's honor back, without being the conquistador he'd served. If anything, he'd be on the sidelines, slow clapping with a smile on his lips.

It was established in House of Steel that Parnell was still in the League effectively acting as an advocate for the Republic of Haven. And I don't think Parnell would let that information out willingly, but considering the situation the Manderians are in, I could easily see them ordering a team to black bag him to try to figure out what happened out there. For that matter, I could see the Alignment doing something similar to find bolthole. Or a prospective secessionist hiring him to "consult" with their SDF.

Sigs wrote:Don't they have to know that Bolthole exists for them to do that? Fact is that Parnell has been out of the war since the first battles in the first war which means he cannot give them anything worth the effort to kidnap him. At the moment the SLN is probably better informed with regards to Havens strategic disposition and technological advantage than Parnell and the SLN doesn't even know Bolthole exists or its vital significance.

And Parnell didn't break under torture before, what makes anyone think he will break now and give up any vital information like the location of Bolthole should he know it.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Sigs wrote:Don't they have to know that Bolthole exists for them to do that? Fact is that Parnell has been out of the war since the first battles in the first war which means he cannot give them anything worth the effort to kidnap him. At the moment the SLN is probably better informed with regards to Havens strategic disposition and technological advantage than Parnell and the SLN doesn't even know Bolthole exists or its vital significance.

And Parnell didn't break under torture before, what makes anyone think he will break now and give up any vital information like the location of Bolthole should he know it.

Also I seem to recall (but haven't gone back to verify) that RFC said Mantie ONI was wrong when they speculated Bolthole might have initially been set up by the Legislaturalist pre-war. If my recollection was wrong and it wasn't even established until after Pierre's coup then it would seem extremely unlikely that Parnell would know anything about it. He got dumped on Hades almost at the very start of the war; being scapegoated for leading his forces into White Haven's trap at Grayson -- not to mention being a member of the overthrown Legislaturalists.
Even if Pierre and St. Just were willing to share info on their top secret R&D base with their Admirals he was gone (and wouldn't have been trusted) before there was anything to say.

Jonathan_S wrote:First, given the energy range through a sidewall is roughly 400-500k km and more like 900k km without one there's no reason for Shrikes to close to 25k km - even if they could undetected.

Somtaaw wrote:100t missile, launched at somewhere between 0.6 and 0.7c (max warship velocity), accelerated upto max even in the pre-MDM days should be around 0.9c or higher. Ballistic phase means they'll be damn near impossible to see, let alone intercept before they've impacted a missile. Could someone do the math there on what single 100t missile would be doing explosion wise?

Loren Pechtel wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:First, given the energy range through a sidewall is roughly 400-500k km and more like 900k km without one there's no reason for Shrikes to close to 25k km - even if they could undetected.

If they can close to 25mkm undetected there's a very good reason to do so. Shrikes mount a pretty hefty graser. If they can maneuver in undetected like that it would be one shot down the throat, bye-bye BC.