Discussions on raiding...

kzt wrote:... Similarly, an orbital bombardment attack on the basic economic or industrial infrastructure of the planet would not be justifiable under the terms of the Edict, nor would a "demonstration strike" on a population center intended to terrify the rest of the planetary population into submission.

noblehunter wrote:So, they had control of the orbitals and the defenders weren't going to be taking them away any time soon.

They didn't call upon the defenders to surrender, though their fig leaf seems to be that the "legitimate" government of the planet requested the strikes. I'm sure the record will show calls to surrender were rejected prior to the bombardment if there needs to be.

Military targets? Well, I'm sure those towns were infested with rebel fighters. Urban combat remains a meat grinder in the Honorverse. Terrorists can't purchase immunity from orbital bombardment by using human shields, the loss of civilian life was regrettable but necessary. They also had co-opted the municipal infrastructure to coordinate their forces.

Against a GA planet, they can't secure the orbitals, they can't make a credible request for surrender, nor can they even pick out specific targets.

Weird Harold wrote:

kzt wrote:... Similarly, an orbital bombardment attack on the basic economic or industrial infrastructure of the planet would not be justifiable under the terms of the Edict, nor would a "demonstration strike" on a population center intended to terrify the rest of the planetary population into submission.

So basically anything Masada did or was willing to do to Grayson?

Jonathan_S wrote:I had to edit my draft post because you got this in while I was writing it up. Like you I assume those technicalities prevented the OFS bombardments from being EE violations were:

But one you didn't specifically address is that they weren't bombarding in order to convince the planetary government and official military to surrender. (Which seems to be the specific purpose of the EE - If you choose to perform a hostile landing before demanding a surrender you seem to be allowed to use orbital fire support to assist your assault shuttles in surviving their approach.
And the FF force bombardment is at least arguable providing fire support to on-planet military formations tasked with recapturing rebel territory.

Now I'd still say that none of the factors we brought up in any way morally justify their unannounced bombardment of rebel communities; even though they appear to void technical violation of the EE. It's still grossly disproportionate and I would certainly hope that that level of bombardment - even under orders of a friendly government - would violate other parts of the Solarian League Navy official rules of war or code of military justice.

The drone paused, motionless, blacker than the night about it, its rain-slick, light-absorbent coat sucking in the photons from the smudgy fires which might otherwise have reflected from it. The turret mounted on its bottom rotated smoothly, turning sensors and lenses towards whatever had attracted its attention. Wind sighed wearily in the branches of sugar pine, crab poplar, and imported Terran white pine and hickory, something shifted in one of the piles of rubble, throwing up sparks and cinders. A burning rafter burned through and collapsed and water dripped from rain-heavy limbs with the patient, uncaring persistence of nature, but otherwise all was still, silent.

The drone considered the sensor data coming to it, decided it was worth consideration by higher authority, and uploaded it to the communications satellite and its operator in far distant Elgin City. Then it waited.

-snipping-

“Unauthorized movement in an interdicted zone, Ma’am,” he replied.

“And you needed a KEW to deal with it?” The lieutenant arched one eyebrow. “A near-deer, do you think? Or possibly a bison elk?”

“IR signature was human, Ma’am. Must’ve been one of MacRory’s bastards, or he wouldn’t’ve been there.”

“I see.” The UPS officer folded her hands behind her. “As it happens, I was standing right over there at the command desk,” she observed, this time with a distinct bite. “If I recall correctly, SOP is to clear a KEW strike with command personnel unless it’s time-critical. Am I mistaken about that?”

-snipping-
“And did they happen to tell us what it was they wanted us to kill this time? Or if we got it?”

“No, Ma’am. Just the coordinates. Could’ve been one of their own battalions, for all I know. And no strike assessment, so far.” And there won’t be one, either…as usual, his expression added silently.

-snipping-
Back in the shattered ruins which had once been a village named Glen mo Chrìdhe, the sound of rain was overlaid by the heavier patter of falling debris. It lasted for several seconds, sparks bouncing and rolling through the wet as some of the still-burning wreckage struck, and then things were still once more. The crater was dozens of meters across, deep enough to swallow an air lorry…and more than enough to devour the cellar into which the thirteen-year-old boy had just darted with the food he’d been able to scavenge for his younger sister.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:
So basically anything Masada did or was willing to do to Grayson?

Yes. I seem to recall RFC even said that if Grayson had been in contact with the rest of the universe at the time of the previous war with Masada - when they did perform demonstration nuclear bombardment - that they could have called on the SLN to enforce the edict.

But since they were still 'lost' at that point that they didn't have the ability, or knowledge, to do that.

Somtaaw wrote:Masada doing demonstration nuclear orbital strikes on a non-surrendering planetary target doesn't quite feel like a EE violation, at first glance. If they weren't totally insane, I'd assume they'd have started with strikes against purely military targets, but Masada wouldn't care if they were breaking EE violations because their God doesn't care what heretic's laws Masadans must break to achieve His Will.

However, Masada has also stated, as mentioned in HotQ, that they are perfectly willing to totally annihilate Grayson if that's what it takes to make them stop 'perverting' the Church of Grayson. And since they're totally insane, and even stole the Thunder, knowing it would piss Haven off to no end... they literally wouldn't believe they were risking Masada being nuked to Hell behind them.

Annachie wrote:From memory, the possibility of an EE strike was heavily discussed a few years ago. But that was more the MAlign using them.

I think that is also where the RFC quote came from.

Summary, if the MAlign went to the trouble of using the spider ships and avoiding outright EE violations, then everybody else would avoud them too.

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk