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ATST Snippet #6 (I think)

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Re: ATST Snippet #6 (I think)
Post by n7axw   » Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:09 pm

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Thirsk has been under pressure for so long from the threat hanging over his family that having that threat removed and his family safe is bound to be a disorienting experience. It is going to take some time for him to come to grips with it.

Telling Maik all about it at this point probably would be unwise from the standpoint of foreclosing options he might otherwise have in dealing with the inquistion. Maik, after all, has his superiors to report to. Even if Maik is completely trustworty, Thirsk may well not want to put Maik in the position of knowing something he is holding back from Zion.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: ATST Snippet #6 (I think)
Post by Randomiser   » Sat Sep 10, 2016 5:17 am

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I agree with Don that telling Maik about either Merlin's visit or his family at this point is a very high risk option. It's a big throw of the dice with an irretrievable downside. I don't think Thirsk would put Maik in the impossible position of having to choose between the admiral and his oaths to both Mother Church and the Grand Inquisitor.

(Mind you, as I have posted elsewhere, I don't understand at all how Maik has managed to retain such a sensitive job for so long with the views he seems to have.)

In HFQ Thirsk thinks
If I really wanted to survive, he thought now, harshly, staring into the fire while the whiskey burned his tongue, I’d tell the bastard I didn’t believe for a moment there’d been any “heretics” involved in the actual explosion … but that it didn’t matter.
<snip>
Clyntahn would probably be smart enough to realize I was lying out my arse when I blamed Charis and not him, but as long as I said it, as long as I acted as if I believed it, he’d probably leave me in command of the Navy … and alive. Until I did the first thing he could conceivably interpret as “betrayal,” at least.


I think that the interview with Maik is much more likely to be the first stage in that sort of campaign. Oh, with Maik the approach will probably be more 'You know and I know what I really think about this, but in the end preserving the navy and winning the Jihad has to be more important and it's the only thing I have left in the world', as he tries to enlist Maik's help to get back to active command, whatever he has actually decided to do with that command ...
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Re: ATST Snippet #6 (I think)
Post by Peter2   » Sat Sep 10, 2016 7:20 am

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Randomiser wrote:I agree with Don that telling Maik about either Merlin's visit or his family at this point is a very high risk option. It's a big throw of the dice with an irretrievable downside. I don't think Thirsk would put Maik in the impossible position of having to choose between the admiral and his oaths to both Mother Church and the Grand Inquisitor.

(Mind you, as I have posted elsewhere, I don't understand at all how Maik has managed to retain such a sensitive job for so long with the views he seems to have.)

In HFQ Thirsk thinks
If I really wanted to survive, he thought now, harshly, staring into the fire while the whiskey burned his tongue, I’d tell the bastard I didn’t believe for a moment there’d been any “heretics” involved in the actual explosion … but that it didn’t matter.
<snip>
Clyntahn would probably be smart enough to realize I was lying out my arse when I blamed Charis and not him, but as long as I said it, as long as I acted as if I believed it, he’d probably leave me in command of the Navy … and alive. Until I did the first thing he could conceivably interpret as “betrayal,” at least.


I think that the interview with Maik is much more likely to be the first stage in that sort of campaign. Oh, with Maik the approach will probably be more 'You know and I know what I really think about this, but in the end preserving the navy and winning the Jihad has to be more important and it's the only thing I have left in the world', as he tries to enlist Maik's help to get back to active command, whatever he has actually decided to do with that command ...


The thing that would stand a very good chance of turning Thirsk away from the CoGA (and possibly from Dohlar as well) would be if Thorast and his cronies were to convince the hard-liners in the CoGA to nail Maik. Thirsk would then be left horribly exposed, and I suspect his remaining term of freedom would be measured in days.
.
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Re: ATST Snippet #6 (I think)
Post by Keith_w   » Sat Sep 10, 2016 7:24 am

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Whether or not Thirsk reveals that his family is still alive, Maik and the Church are going to be well aware that his family not being under the Church's thumb is going to have a major effect on Thirsk's attitude. They may even feel that Thirsk will blame the church and especially the Grand Inquisitor for their deaths, since they would not have died had he not ordered them to make their pilgramage.
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Re: ATST Snippet #6 (I think)
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Sat Sep 10, 2016 9:46 am

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fallsfromtrees wrote:As an exercise for the reader:

How many people died of burns in the Hidden berg disaster?

And of those, how many died by being burned by Hydrogen?

=%_=#÷^&&^^ auto correct. I fixed that at least 2 times, and am sure that I read Hindenberg before I sent it.

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Re: ATST Snippet #6 (I think)
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Sat Sep 10, 2016 4:02 pm

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XofDallas wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:fallsfromtrees said:
As an exercise for the reader:

How many people died of burns in the Hidden berg disaster?

And of those, how many died by being burned by Hydrogen?


1,517 went down with the Titanic.

And hydrogen wasn't involved.

You're thinking Titanic. fallsfromtrees' post, I think, was referring to the Hindenburg.


I know he actually was referring to the Hindenburg. However, note the quote says "Hidden berg". The disaster that comes to mind for that is the Titanic. I was just having fund with a typo.
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Re: ATST Snippet #6 (I think)
Post by DMcCunney   » Mon Sep 12, 2016 4:40 pm

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Louis R wrote:Something here that a lot of people seem to be overlooking:

Schuelerite != inquisitor

I'm not even sure that Intendant = inquisitor, at least not before the 'special' intendants started showing up, and even some of them don't seem to be inquisitors.

I'd have to Look Stuff Up, but I'm reasonably sure Maik is a member of the Inquisition.

However, he dates from rather before Zhaspar Clyntahn got elected Grand Inquisitor in a rigged election. I strongly suspect he's not the only member of the Inquisition unhappy about the policies of the current Grand Inquisitor, but members of the Inquisition swear oaths to obey the Grand Inquisitor that don't lapse when a new guy assumes the office.

The course Clyntahn has committed Mother Church and anyone loyal to it to has put intense pressure on sworn oaths everywhere, and Thirsk is an example. It's progressively harder for him to obey his oaths as he is demanded to do things all of his former upbringing, training, and religious beliefs would consider unacceptable, and he's only the tip of that iceberg.

As the situation of Mother Church and the Jihad drops further into the toilet, we can expect to see all sorts of people deciding Clyntahn doesn't speak for God and the Archangels. Clyntahn may discover the Inquisition isn't the solid loyal block he assumes.
______
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Re: ATST Snippet #6 (I think)
Post by lyonheart   » Thu Sep 15, 2016 2:46 am

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Hi PeterZ,

First, I'm curious about the detailed textev for the gyroscope reference, because its a long way after the gyroscope that the gyrocompass was invented that began the development of real naval fire control systems which took decades

secondly, it was almost 20 years after we started building ships of this tonnage that improving long range fire control became a concern, so going from 25 yards or "ha' pistol shot" out to around ~4000 yards ought to be more than adequate in demonstrating the KH VII's overwhelming superiority at the moment.

The gyrocompass was only invented in 1904, and was seen as a great improvement in the ship knowing where and what it was doing, a considerable improvement on the preceding guesswork, but it was decades further before any kind of central control connection between such sensors and the gun turrets.

The Battle of Tushima in 1905 became an overwhelming IJN victory when the range dropped to ~7000 yards, where the IJN gunnery excelled; there are Russian reports of seeing the 4' long 11" IJN shells tumbling in the air before landing during the initial distant exchanges with the Russian Navy scoring some 15 hits on the Mikasa in the first 5 minutes which was very good shooting indeed, while the IJN is credited with around 20% hits overall, compared to the USN's 2% in the Spanish-American War at generally rather shorter ranges seven years earlier.

Given the advantages of the all big gun 'dreadnoughts' quickly following the battle, the importance of longer ranged accurate fire began striking home in the minds of any intelligent naval officer, with the major powers developing variations on long range centrally controlled gunfire.

Besides the critical role of electricity in such fire control solutions, already cited by others, my primary concern for the balloon units aboard, is the much more critical one of communication.

Transmitting what they below the balloon know down to the ship, even if its only a hundred or two hundred yards, without the electric telegraph, as used in the ACW creates all sorts of problems; voice tubes or string connected tin cans have definite range limits.

Being able to hear such reports clearly down on the deck amid the ambient noise etc let alone the guns firing is very problematic, and the sound powered phones aboard US ships in WW2 required electric transducers at both ends, not something generally available on Safehold at the moment.

Telegraph flags seem to be the only two-way answer at the moment [message canisters are only one way and very limited in number] but such flag movements could only attract unwanted attention, certainly not what the ICN wants.

What Nahrmahn [ie RFC] has come up with that is less observable [stealthier?] will be fascinating to discover. ;)

Besides binoculars and telescopes, rain gear;, maps, paper, pencils and pens, etc plus signal flags [and other communications systems], water bottles and food, what other equipment should they have in the balloon cages?

L


PeterZ wrote:Thanks for clarifying. I was focusing on connecting a gyro to the gun.

I still believe having a gyro is necessary to fully utilize the range those 8" & 10" riles can achieve. Have a adjustable timer connected both the gun and the gyro would be even better. The idea is to make as many of the variables measurable and repeatable rather than rely on pure intuition. Being able to set the time to appropriately trigger the gun prior to being level will make it possible to take advantage of the range. A balloon will really add to the gub's accuracy.

I wouldn't be surprised if a mechanical fire control computer does eventually get developed.

Louis R wrote:Essentially, you did it when you started talking about fire control. There's a _lot_ more involved than 'fire when the gun is level'. In fact, you probably don't even want to fire when it's level, and even if that is optimal, you certainly don't want to pull the trigger then - you need to do it sooner, so the gun will be level when it goes off. And as was said upthread, how much sooner depends on several factors, including how fast the ship is rolling.

*quote="PeterZ"*Larry,

I am just suggesting a pneumatic gyroscope and a mechanism to fire when the gun is level as indicated by the gyro. When did I argue for a fire control computer?

*quote**quote*
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: ATST Snippet #6 (I think)
Post by Randomiser   » Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:48 am

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lyonheart wrote:
Transmitting what they below the balloon know down to the ship, even if its only a hundred or two hundred yards, without the electric telegraph, as used in the ACW creates all sorts of problems; voice tubes or string connected tin cans have definite range limits.

<snip>

Telegraph flags seem to be the only two-way answer at the moment [message canisters are only one way and very limited in number] but such flag movements could only attract unwanted attention, certainly not what the ICN wants.

What Nahrmahn [ie RFC] has come up with that is less observable [stealthier?] will be fascinating to discover. ;)



Hi Lyonheart

With something as noticeable as an observation balloon floating there 100-200 yards (as you suggest) up in the air, it's hard to see why the signalling system has to be stealthy. Once it appears everyone is going to know what it's there for, see Merlin's comments on why the 'aeronauts' aren't going to be allowed to continue operational training once they arrive at the front.

I would have thought your signal flags or some adaptation of the usual Safeholdian semaphore system would be the most likely things. Unless visibility is good there's no point in sending the balloon up, after all.
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Re: ATST Snippet #6 (I think)
Post by Annachie   » Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:22 am

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Is there any history on how bullet proof sych balloons were in RL? Thistle silk balloons will presumably be tougher than anything really produced at this tech level, but I'm still curious.

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