Discussions on raiding...

Somtaaw wrote:...also knowing they're running the equivalent of something like Windows 3.1 on a Cray supercomputer, while you're using the same Cray but using Windows 10.

They don't have that kind of advantage. Now if they were running any version of Windblows and you were using any version of Linux you'd have a decent analogy.

Bill Woods wrote:At 0.7c, you're packing 8.6 MT (36e15 J) per kilogram.
At 0.9c, it's 28 MT (116e15 J) per kg.

The Tsar Bomba had about 50 MT (210e15 J).
The Chicxulub event is estimated at 100e6 MT (420e21 J).

Are we including relativistic effects into that? Because at .7c they'd be pretty hefty.

Somtaaw wrote:Oh agreed, but between New Tuscany, Spindle, and Second Battle of Manticore, the Solarian defenses were examined thoroughly and it was determined that the base premise was the Solarian's only really needed to update their software and it'd be almost as good as anything Manticore had.

Rather than the password analogy you used, where the Solarian ships are coming up short is more like their OS, or the drivers. Their hardware's more or less fine (except their CMs could be better), and the Aegis/Halo systems are almost as good as the Ghost Rider's at the hardware level.

Obviously being able to slip in, knowing their password is password is one thing, but knowing their password, and also knowing they're running the equivalent of something like Windows 3.1 on a Cray supercomputer, while you're using the same Cray but using Windows 10.

Though that's only true of the ECM hardware, and possibly sensors.

The actually CM launchers are pitifully slow, IIRC Manticoran ones are something like 4-5 times faster and 4 or 5 times more CM per tube per minute is huge. Same issue for the missile launchers; something like 1/2 to 1/3 the speed of the Mk16 fusion launchers and even worse compared to the quicker RMN capacitor missile tubes.

And though I don't think we know for sure I wouldn't be at all surprised if their PDLCs mounted less powerful emitters, as well as fewer emitters per cluster than their RMN counterparts. (Especially in the BC, since IIRC Nike-class BC(L)'s mount SD grade PDLCs)

So in addition to having insufficient numbers of point defense installations, the ones the have are significantly inferior on a hardware level to those of the RMN.


A "driver update" will make them more effective, significantly so, but you'd still need to build new ships with new generations of launchers and (probably) PDLCs to really close the missile defense gap with Manticore. (Not to mention the better CMs you brought up)

Louis R wrote:mmmmm...
Didn't realise you had copies of the Edict and associated statutes, regulations and case law. Do

The part about having to warn and demand surrender before bombarding planets. And the total prohibition against striking population centers with no military purpose. You could read what David wrote on that.

But we have not yet seen any SLN ship refuse to, without warning, bombard populated civilian areas that had no military purpose when given some vague "don't worry, it's ok" explanation by somone over the radio. So what evidence do you have that they will ever find anything that they can't justify to themselves? Please, provide this.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Somtaaw wrote:Oh agreed, but between New Tuscany, Spindle, and Second Battle of Manticore, the Solarian defenses were examined thoroughly and it was determined that the base premise was the Solarian's only really needed to update their software and it'd be almost as good as anything Manticore had.

Rather than the password analogy you used, where the Solarian ships are coming up short is more like their OS, or the drivers. Their hardware's more or less fine (except their CMs could be better), and the Aegis/Halo systems are almost as good as the Ghost Rider's at the hardware level.

Obviously being able to slip in, knowing their password is password is one thing, but knowing their password, and also knowing they're running the equivalent of something like Windows 3.1 on a Cray supercomputer, while you're using the same Cray but using Windows 10.

Though that's only true of the ECM hardware, and possibly sensors.

The actually CM launchers are pitifully slow, IIRC Manticoran ones are something like 4-5 times faster and 4 or 5 times more CM per tube per minute is huge. Same issue for the missile launchers; something like 1/2 to 1/3 the speed of the Mk16 fusion launchers and even worse compared to the quicker RMN capacitor missile tubes.

And though I don't think we know for sure I wouldn't be at all surprised if their PDLCs mounted less powerful emitters, as well as fewer emitters per cluster than their RMN counterparts. (Especially in the BC, since IIRC Nike-class BC(L)'s mount SD grade PDLCs)

So in addition to having insufficient numbers of point defense installations, the ones the have are significantly inferior on a hardware level to those of the RMN.


A "driver update" will make them more effective, significantly so, but you'd still need to build new ships with new generations of launchers and (probably) PDLCs to really close the missile defense gap with Manticore. (Not to mention the better CMs you brought up)

Well, the SLN ships are so bad, that just giving them the driver/OS upgrades to their existing missile defenses would practically be an order of magnitude in their missile defenses

But I was going to address those points, that the SLN would also need to drastically increase PDLC/CM numbers + performance in their next generation of ships, fielding a next generation CM, and updating their drivers... but I'm also limiting it to "well the Mandarins are broke, they can't afford to build new ships anyways". They could probably figure out a way to 'pay' a programmer to get their driver updates, and then that simply takes a chip install + overwrite to get those upgrades to the existing fleet.

Even without the Sl as the main enforcer EE you would have the worry of any surviving warships of the world you just hit with a violation deciding they have nothing left too lose by hitting you back with one of their own.

An issue that makes the raiding stratagem pointless is that GA is no longer look for a negotiated settlement that would leave the Sl in any sort of position to come back and destroy them at some future point.

blackjack217 wrote:

Bill Woods wrote:At 0.7c, you're packing 8.6 MT (36e15 J) per kilogram.
At 0.9c, it's 28 MT (116e15 J) per kg.

The Tsar Bomba had about 50 MT (210e15 J).
The Chicxulub event is estimated at 100e6 MT (420e21 J).

Are we including relativistic effects into that? Because at .7c they'd be pretty hefty.

Moderately hefty.
The kinetic energy is (gamma-1) mc^2,
where gamma(v) == 1/sqrt{ 1 - (v/c)^2 }
At 0.7c, gamma = 1.4; at 0.9c, gamma = 2.3.

From memory, the possibility of an EE strike was heavily discussed a few years ago. But that was more the MAlign using them.

I think that is also where the RFC quote came from.

Summary, if the MAlign went to the trouble of using the spider ships and avoiding outright EE violations, then everybody else would avoud them too.

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

Regardless of how the captain gets his crew to agree to mass-murder, the League in general would first hear about an EE strike from GA sources. The political fallout would be severe, to say the least.

And, as the math above shows, there's several orders of magnitude difference between an OFS destroyer performing KEW strikes while parked in orbit at the request of the "legitimate" government and the kind of a attack that could be performed against any major GA world. It's one thing to for to request a surrender before nuking towns on some company-owned back water. It's something else entirely to glass a planet from beyond the hyper limit

noblehunter wrote:And, as the math above shows, there's several orders of magnitude difference between an OFS destroyer performing KEW strikes while parked in orbit at the request of the "legitimate" government and the kind of a attack that could be performed against any major GA world. It's one thing to for to request a surrender before nuking towns on some company-owned back water.

Except they didn't do any of that. They just obliterated the towns.

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... ngton/31/0

First, they may only be used by an attacker who controls near-planet space. That is, a raiding squadron which dashes in, passes within weapons range of the planet, and then lopes off again before a relief force can turn up and kick its butt, cannot pop off a few missiles at the planet as it passes without violating the Edict. Before it can fire at targets on the planetary surface, it must have established that the planet has no immediate prospect of relief, and that they (the attackers) are in a position to send down assault forces if they choose to do so. At that point, the attackers are entitled to summon the planet to surrender upon pain of bombardment from space. If the defenders choose not to surrender, then the attackers are justified in using bombardment to take out specific military targets rather than sending their assault forces down to be slaughtered trying to take them with infantry or armored units in an effort to prevent civilian casualties.

The military targets which are legitimate candidates for bombardment are also clearly understood to fall into specifically limited categories. They may be command-and-control nodes, such as planetary military and/or political command structures and facilities. They may be tactical weapons positions or troop concentrations. They may be civilian communications facilities which have military applications. However, all of them must have immediate, tactical applications and capabilities.

What this means is that a planetary defense missile battery, wherever located, is a legitimate target. The defenders can't stick the missiles in the middle of Central Park in New York City in order to protect them against attack under the terms of the Eridani Edict. If there are weapons there, then they are legitimate targets for attack. By the same token, if two armored divisions dig in to defend New York City and their commander refuses to surrender, then they become a legitimate target. The White House in Washington, DC, would be a legitimate target, as would the Pentagon, because of their command-and-control functions. A civilian powerplant being used to provide electricity to weapons systems, or sensors, or electronic warfare platforms, would also be a legitimate target. However, a factory which produced missiles but had no capacity to fire them, would not be a legitimate target because it poses no immediate tactical threat to the fleet in orbit around the planet or to the assault troops which it might land to take possession of the factory. Similarly, an orbital bombardment attack on the basic economic or industrial infrastructure of the planet would not be justifiable under the terms of the Edict, nor would a "demonstration strike" on a population center intended to terrify the rest of the planetary population into submission.