Nativization of Forces

crucisnh wrote:I think that the answer to the final point may hinge on whether the captured guns required a non-standard ammo or not, since having to set up a production line to support a captured gun ammo might be more hassle than it's worth. In which case, I could see the argument in favor of just melting them down and making new, EoC-standard rifles from the raw material.

If the only thing you're recycling is the barrel, the Bore is the only thing that would affect the ammo. The receiver group -- including the chamber -- is what determine the ammo used. If the Bore is anything close to a M96 -- say .50 inches for arguments sake -- adding a receiver chambered for M96 ammo and reaming the barrel to exactly .50 inches will produce a rifle fully compatible with the M96 logistics train.

Where you run into problems is when the muzzle-loader barrels have a bore greater than the M96 -- say .57 inches or .75 inches -- chambering for standard M96 ammo wouldn't work. A barrel that can't be reamed to a standard bore diameter -- walls too thin or off-center bore, or something similar -- can't be converted to safely use an M96 receiver and ammo.

Hand-forged muzzle loaders in r/w history were notoriously incompatible with any other manufacturers hand-forged muzzle loader -- sometimes even the same maker's weapons. Converting captured CoGA muzzle loaders -- even just recycling the barrels -- is going to be a problem for that reason. Even nominally the right bore diameter is going to require reaming or re-boring nearly as extensive as milling a brand new barrel -- without Charis' quality control over the steel used.

DMcCunney wrote:And thinking about it, while Corisandian assistance might be available to Sharleyan to help her deal with recalcitrant nobles in Chisholm, she'd really rather not need to use it. Chisholm still isn't 100% reconciled to being part of the EoC on the part of various great nobles who see their own position diminished, and the ones who are the main concern aren't the only ones who might feel unhappy. If she has to resort to calling out the army to put down an insurrection, it will be important that the troops be Chisholmian troops. Using imports from Corisande to assist would not go over well in Chisholm.

Any Chisholm Nobles inclined to revolt over being part of the Empire of Charis are going to see any troops other than Chisholm-born troops as foreign invaders, and they'd have a good chance of convincing the rest of Chisholm to that point-of-view. Even Charis-trained Chisholm troops are going to be derided as traitors to "True Chisholm Patriotism."

I'm not sure that Sharleyan has any troops available that can't be spun as foreigners or Charisian lackeys. That's going to present public relations problems in suppressing the discontented nobles.

For a popular uprising, the nationality of the troops surprising it is important. I just don't see Chisholmian nobles being able to gather that sort of popular support. Charisian investments are generating jobs and opportunities. So for every master craftsmen ticked at changes in their monopoly over their craft, there are many more apprentices that can advance in the new factory floors.

What possible message beyond returning Chisholm to the bad old days of living in perpetual servitude under the great nobles can these nobles realistically espouse? No one will possibly believe anything different. Any troops used to put down those nobles will be instant countrymen so long as they wear the empire's uniform and answer to the Empress' officers. THEIR Empress' officers.

PeterZ wrote:For a popular uprising, the nationality of the troops surprising it is important. I just don't see Chisholmian nobles being able to gather that sort of popular support. Charisian investments are generating jobs and opportunities. So for every master craftsmen ticked at changes in their monopoly over their craft, there are many more apprentices that can advance in the new factory floors.

The fact that the great nobles in question hadn't learned anything in dealing with Queen Sharleyan back before Chisholm became part to the EoC indicates a massive disconnect from reality.

Cayleb and Sharleyan were quite careful that the military used in taking down the Northern Conspiracy were all Sir Koryn's people. Charisian backup was available if requested, but it was important from a political point of view that this was an action of the legally constituted Regency Council against elements that wanted to foment civil war in Corisande for their own benefit. The ones doing the taking down of the conspirators needed to be Corisandians, acting under the direction of the legitimate government.

And the Corisandian nobles had at least enough wit to realize that they would need genuine popular support to have a hope of success. (They lacked the wit to realize they would not get that support.)

What possible message beyond returning Chisholm to the bad old days of living in perpetual servitude under the great nobles can these nobles realistically espouse? No one will possibly believe anything different. Any troops used to put down those nobles will be instant countrymen so long as they wear the empire's uniform and answer to the Empress' officers. THEIR Empress' officers.

I still think the troops used really need to be Chisholmian as a matter of form. And I really don't see Sharleyan needing assistance from Corisande in any case. She has adequate forces still in Corisande to deal with noble idiots incapable of learning, and the exercise might just be seen by nobles who remain loyal as good for the nobility, since it removes a level of idiocy from the noble gene pool. "They always were too stupid to be fit to be great nobles, and if they hadn't inherited their lands and titles, they'd be nothing." might be a common (if unvoiced) reaction by loyal nobility which does know which side its bread is buttered on.
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Dennis

Weird Harold wrote:

crucisnh wrote:I think that the answer to the final point may hinge on whether the captured guns required a non-standard ammo or not, since having to set up a production line to support a captured gun ammo might be more hassle than it's worth. In which case, I could see the argument in favor of just melting them down and making new, EoC-standard rifles from the raw material.

If the only thing you're recycling is the barrel, the Bore is the only thing that would affect the ammo. The receiver group -- including the chamber -- is what determine the ammo used. If the Bore is anything close to a M96 -- say .50 inches for arguments sake -- adding a receiver chambered for M96 ammo and reaming the barrel to exactly .50 inches will produce a rifle fully compatible with the M96 logistics train.

Where you run into problems is when the muzzle-loader barrels have a bore greater than the M96 -- say .57 inches or .75 inches -- chambering for standard M96 ammo wouldn't work. A barrel that can't be reamed to a standard bore diameter -- walls too thin or off-center bore, or something similar -- can't be converted to safely use an M96 receiver and ammo.

Hand-forged muzzle loaders in r/w history were notoriously incompatible with any other manufacturers hand-forged muzzle loader -- sometimes even the same maker's weapons. Converting captured CoGA muzzle loaders -- even just recycling the barrels -- is going to be a problem for that reason. Even nominally the right bore diameter is going to require reaming or re-boring nearly as extensive as milling a brand new barrel -- without Charis' quality control over the steel used.

Why are we fussing about ammo? The guns I was proposing to convert when I advanced the idea are already distributed to the Siddarmarkan army after having been captured in the
aftermath of Alliance victories. That means that they already have to come with ammo for those guns. All providing kits would do would be to provide their users with the advantages of breach loading.

By the way, the churches St. Klymans are being done with iron barrels. My suggestion is that this be done as an interim measure only until they can be relaced with trap doors or M96es. After that, by all means, smelt.

Don

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Weird Harold wrote:
If the only thing you're recycling is the barrel, the Bore is the only thing that would affect the ammo. The receiver group -- including the chamber -- is what determine the ammo used. If the Bore is anything close to a M96 -- say .50 inches for arguments sake -- adding a receiver chambered for M96 ammo and reaming the barrel to exactly .50 inches will produce a rifle fully compatible with the M96 logistics train.

Where you run into problems is when the muzzle-loader barrels have a bore greater than the M96 -- say .57 inches or .75 inches -- chambering for standard M96 ammo wouldn't work. A barrel that can't be reamed to a standard bore diameter -- walls too thin or off-center bore, or something similar -- can't be converted to safely use an M96 receiver and ammo.

Hand-forged muzzle loaders in r/w history were notoriously incompatible with any other manufacturers hand-forged muzzle loader -- sometimes even the same maker's weapons. Converting captured CoGA muzzle loaders -- even just recycling the barrels -- is going to be a problem for that reason. Even nominally the right bore diameter is going to require reaming or re-boring nearly as extensive as milling a brand new barrel -- without Charis' quality control over the steel used.

The original Trapdoor was the Allin Conversion of the Springfield rifled musket that the Union's standard issue during the Civil War. The Allin Conversions used a .50-70 round. When they did the conversion, part of the process was sleeving the larger muzzle loader barrel so it would fire the .50-70 by boring the existing barrel out slightly and inserting a sleeve with the proper bore with the proper twist and chamber for the cartridge.

If the Charisan Trapdoors are using something along the lines of a .45 or .50 caliber round, a larger bore (like a .58) would make the process easier and safer since the better steel of the sleeve would be thicker.

I've been mulling this one for a while. It's very important to remember that a) what really matters for the Empire in Chisholm is the Commons, and b) Chisholm has a History with Corisande, and the locals haven't forgotten that - nor the fact that Hector's actions could have, and were probably intended to, shift power back into the hands of the nobility from the Crown. In the end, the utility of Corisande-born troops in this situation comes down to one thing: will the typical Chisholmian be offended by 'further interference' in their affairs, or rolling in the aisles because Sharleyan got to use _Corisandeans_ to whack those high-born pigs. I suspect that appreciation of the irony will prevail by a sufficient margin.

DMcCunney wrote:I still think the troops used really need to be Chisholmian as a matter of form. And I really don't see Sharleyan needing assistance from Corisande in any case. She has adequate forces still in Corisande to deal with noble idiots incapable of learning, and the exercise might just be seen by nobles who remain loyal as good for the nobility, since it removes a level of idiocy from the noble gene pool. "They always were too stupid to be fit to be great nobles, and if they hadn't inherited their lands and titles, they'd be nothing." might be a common (if unvoiced) reaction by loyal nobility which does know which side its bread is buttered on.
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Dennis

PS: Sorry, forgot to add that there is an extremely important political and social point involved here:

Once you enter the Empire's service, it no longer matters where you're from, or for whom you may previously have fought.

Now, whether that point is made or obscured by employing a Corisandean force - or, more likely, including Corisandeans in the forces employed - in this affair is an interesting question.

Louis R wrote:I've been mulling this one for a while. It's very important to remember that a) what really matters for the Empire in Chisholm is the Commons, and b) Chisholm has a History with Corisande, and the locals haven't forgotten that - nor the fact that Hector's actions could have, and were probably intended to, shift power back into the hands of the nobility from the Crown. In the end, the utility of Corisande-born troops in this situation comes down to one thing: will the typical Chisholmian be offended by 'further interference' in their affairs, or rolling in the aisles because Sharleyan got to use _Corisandeans_ to whack those high-born pigs. I suspect that appreciation of the irony will prevail by a sufficient margin.

DMcCunney wrote:I still think the troops used really need to be Chisholmian as a matter of form. And I really don't see Sharleyan needing assistance from Corisande in any case. She has adequate forces still in Corisande to deal with noble idiots incapable of learning, and the exercise might just be seen by nobles who remain loyal as good for the nobility, since it removes a level of idiocy from the noble gene pool. "They always were too stupid to be fit to be great nobles, and if they hadn't inherited their lands and titles, they'd be nothing." might be a common (if unvoiced) reaction by loyal nobility which does know which side its bread is buttered on.
_______
Dennis

Louis R wrote:I've been mulling this one for a while. It's very important to remember that a) what really matters for the Empire in Chisholm is the Commons, and b) Chisholm has a History with Corisande, and the locals haven't forgotten that - nor the fact that Hector's actions could have, and were probably intended to, shift power back into the hands of the nobility from the Crown.

That might have been a side effect. But what Hector dreamed of was turing the League of Corisande into what the Empire of Charis now is. He took the Church's acceptance of his conquest of Zebediah as assent to his ambitions, and likely viewed being annointed as Mother Church's sword arm and placed in overall charge of the combined attempt to crush Charis as a gift from God and the Archangels.

Hector rode fairly lightly at home, and protected his commoners against the worst of the noble's depredations. If he had been able to add Chisholm to his fold, I suspect he'd have been even less sympathetic to great nobles with self-serving ideas of the proper relationship between the nobility and the crown than Cayleb and Sharleyan are. He wouldn't have bothered with due process of law or legal proof of treason. He'd simply have taken their heads.

In the end, the utility of Corisande-born troops in this situation comes down to one thing: will the typical Chisholmian be offended by 'further interference' in their affairs, or rolling in the aisles because Sharleyan got to use _Corisandeans_ to whack those high-born pigs. I suspect that appreciation of the irony will prevail by a sufficient margin.

All of which assumes Sharleyan will need outside assistance in dealing with her noble idiots. I don't see it as likely, and I think she'd be circumspect about using it if she did think it was called for.

And timing would be a consideration. How long would it take to assemble a Corisandian force to provide such assistance and get them to Chisholm? Would she have the time if the ball dropped and her noble idiots made their move? She might well have to put in the call to Corisande to assemble the forces and get them en route rather before her idiots actually made their move, which opens its own can of worms.

PS: Sorry, forgot to add that there is an extremely important political and social point involved here:

Once you enter the Empire's service, it no longer matters where you're from, or for whom you may previously have fought.

Now, whether that point is made or obscured by employing a Corisandean force - or, more likely, including Corisandeans in the forces employed - in this affair is an interesting question.

It shouldn't matter. But recall the conversation between Cayleb and Sharleyan in HFQ about the timing of her return to Tellesburg, and Cayleb states that Daivyn has sworn fealty, Corisande is a province of the Charisian Empire, and they can simply issue imperial instructions. Sharleyan agrees they could, but Corisande is still a brand new part of the Empire and the notion that is is part of the Empire is still settling in. There will be a limit to how much Cayleb and Sharleyan will want to say "Because we're the Emperor and Empress, and we say so!", before it does settle in more firmly.

The modern notion of the nation state is still settling in on Safehold, witness Cayleb and Sharleyan's political moves in binding other ruling houses to their own via marriages to create blood ties. The people of Corisande were all Corisandians, but being subjects of the House of Daikyn was more important than just where they happened to live.

I think Sharleyan could get away with using Corisandian troops to help suppress Chisholmian great nobles with delusions of grandeur, and I suspect Sir Koryn would be tickled to provide the assistance.

But I think she'd prefer not to, and I don't see it as needed. If nothing else, there is still a Charisian presence on Corisande and in Zebediah, which is closer. I suspect Grand Duke Cherymyn of Zebidiah could come up with additional Charisian troops to send along without things falling apart there if Sharleyan felt the ICA training cadre in Chisholm wasn't enough.
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Dennis

Unless Sharleyan really drops the ball, which is hard to do when you've got SNARC surveillance on the ring-leaders, she won't need anything like the 20,000 troops she has on Chisholm to collar them. She can't need lots of troops unless the nobles have recruited and armed large forces of their own or they have a large 'popular uprising.' Beginning to buy those arms or recruit those troops or recruit organisers for such an uprising are all clearly treason, so once they begin the actual process she has the evidence she needs to arrest them. That's why she is so sanguine about the whole business.