Discussions on raiding...

Duckk wrote:

The Alliance has enough wallers to station a division each in every third rate system.

Sure, if they want to disperse all their combat power into impotence...

Depends ... how many SDs - not SD(P)s, but old-style-SDs like Gryphon-Class or Samothrace-Class vessels - are still available? They could cover 3rd-rate-systems, if the need should arise. They should be able to control enough missile pods to give any solarian BC-force something to think about. And they should still have enough old-style-missiles to make the point, if the local Solarian Commander-in-Chief insists to be stubborn ...

On the negative, they are very manpower-intensive units, and we don't know anything about the upgrade-situation. especially regarding the uniformity of the upgrades they had received. How many of them can handle Ghost-rider, for example? How good are their accel-rates? Are they able to use ERMs, or are they limited to SDMs for their on-board-missiles? The answers for this questions are crucial to determine how suitable the old SDs are for protection of some 3rd-rate systems against SLN-BF or SLN-FF raids.

npadln wrote:I don't know... It seems like a pretty good and workable plan despite the immorality of it all; desperate men making desperate choices and all. Doesn't seem like it would be such a huge leap for the Mandarins to make and the REAL stumbling block for THEM might only be how they sell it to the Navy or more specifically its commanders and thereby make the the rest of the League unknowingly de-facto collaborators. As far as the long term repercussions within the League itself? "We'll deal with that when the dust settles..." History is ripe with nations committing war crimes and then assuming their prerogative as victors to write the history as THEY see fit.

As we see in SoF and SoV, SLN officers charged with relatively restricted planetary bombardments hated their orders. They don't give a damn about what some bureaucrat hundreds of light years away wants; they know they will be the ones left holding the bag. They will not just stick their necks out obligingly for a clearly illegal order. Again, there is literally no ambiguity in the Eridani Edict. Indiscriminate planetary bombardments launched without calling on the planet to surrender or even controlling the orbitals is 100% against the provisions of the Edict. David has written extensively about the Edict and how it is thoroughly internalized by the League. This is not something the SLN is going to dick around with. They will mutiny, period.

Duckk wrote:You must have missed the part where they're actually doing things with their wallers.

I dont think i missed anything, i just think guarding Alliance capital worlds with havenite war era Home Fleets while not hitting the League as hard as possible while they are still able to is pretty stupid.

At this point a single Invictus BatRon backed up by system defense pods can destroy everything Battlefleet has in active commission.

I mean sure, Tourville has reinforced 10th Fleet at this point, but the Alliance still reuses to fight the war since they are still hoping for sanity on the other side.
In my opinion this is borderline suicidal.

The Alliance must destroy the League no matter what. They can not afford the cessation of hostilities, the League will just turn around and destroy them a couple of decades down the road.
The only way forward is to break them up and pray that whatever comes after turns upon itself instead of the Alliance.
And this wont happen by just sitting at home and nibbling on the Verge.
Destroying the League means to annihilate its foundations.
And those arent some unchecked bureaucrats or powerless politicians in the Sol system but the economical might of the core worlds, its spacebased infrastructure, its civilian and military production capacity, its merchant fleets, its transtellars - all of this must be destroyed, the core worlds need to be thrown back to pre diaspora levels and isolated from each other.
This will enable the Verge and the Shell to rise up and free themselves from the dominance of the core worlds. Verge and Shell wont see the Alliance as conquerors or oppressors but as liberators.
When the core worlds recover recover in a t-century or whatever they'll face not only the Alliance but probably hundreds of independent star nations unwilling to avenge the League.
And the Alliance will rule supreme for hundreds of tyears.
Unless of course they dont start fighting each other again.

Duckk wrote:They will mutiny, period.

Inter arma enim silent leges

Not that the story will go there, but I'm wondering what would happen if 'someone' starts bombarding solarian worlds first and blames it on Manticore...

Duckk wrote:As we see in SoF and SoV, SLN officers charged with relatively restricted planetary bombardments hated their orders. They don't give a damn about what some bureaucrat hundreds of light years away wants; they know they will be the ones left holding the bag. They will not just stick their necks out obligingly for a clearly illegal order. Again, there is literally no ambiguity in the Eridani Edict. Indiscriminate planetary bombardments launched without calling on the planet to surrender or even controlling the orbitals is 100% against the provisions of the Edict. David has written extensively about the Edict and how it is thoroughly internalized by the League. This is not something the SLN is going to dick around with. They will mutiny, period.

As the SL minister of war has clearly explained, the legitimate government is allowed to suppress rebellions without any of that stuff. And my friend here is the head of the provisional government, who the SL has recognized as the legitimate government, and he has authorized us to suppress this rebellion.

Commerce raiding certainly sounds good. There are, however, a couple of problems for the SLN.
One would be that the ability to use the wormholes they routinely used to move around has been severely curtailed through Lacoon II so all the logistics will have to go through hyperspace which will add a lot of time to any plan
Another would be that they have to find the commerce to raid. Does your average SLN BC really want to drop into a system defended by GA LACs? It really doesn't matter if they are RMN or RHN, if they are recent generations of LACs they are going to be a nasty surprise to any SLN- BF or FF- ship encountering them.
Who's commerce are you going to raid? Nearest? SEM and allied in Talbot. Do you recall 10th Fleet posting a lot of LACs there? Out in the boarders of Haven territory- you have to get there first and not even SL freighters have been there is quite a while, little problem with wormhole transits to Haven by Manticore. Go jump freighters near Erwhon? Really? Who are no longer part of a Manticore Alliance and the SLN dam well knows it. Just go kill random freighters someplace- not productive, might be better off making up stories to feed the press about your new SLN victories.
Sure, you could swamp a couple of wings of LACs with 20 BC's but how many of those BCs would make it out of the system undamaged? Sure, you could destroy most systems infrastructure and any freighters you might find in system but who's and why? You could also hang round the edges of systems and kill merchant shipping (you are there to destroy it, not to capture for profit) but that is going to eventualy attract attention and somebody- say SEM or RHN is going to come hunting you.

So just what does Kingsford consider a good loss to kill ratio for his light to BC sized warships against "undefended" or non-allined systems in an effort to damage the SEM or RH shipping and trade flow?
Valiant FF BC destroys freighter just as it leaves the Zunker system- suspected of dealing with Manticore? I guess that may play well in Old Chicago....and just who's freighter was it anyway....you didn't say, did you even ask or was it a case of fire without warning from ambush and vanish into hyperspace before those Damm Manty warships could get within range?

I mean sure, Tourville has reinforced 10th Fleet at this point, but the Alliance still reuses to fight the war since they are still hoping for sanity on the other side.

Not fighting the war? Tenth Fleet would beg to differ. And we have no idea what's happening in other theaters.

Not that the story will go there, but I'm wondering what would happen if 'someone' starts bombarding solarian worlds first and blames it on Manticore...

Gee, I wonder if David hasn't talked about this before...

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/271/1
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5762&p=146442

kzt wrote:As the SL minister of war has clearly explained, the legitimate government is allowed to suppress rebellions without any of that stuff. And my friend here is the head of the provisional government, who the SL has recognized as the legitimate government, and he has authorized us to suppress this rebellion.

You would have to first install said provisional government into power and have said government be officially recognized (instead of everyone rolling their eyes and ignoring you in favor of the government that has been ruling for generations). Just randomly lobbing missiles at any planet before you can get your "provisional government" in place is putting the cart before the horse.

Somtaaw wrote:Already discussed in another thread I believe. Without being more; shall we say persuasive than normal, it's rather doubtful Amos Parnell will willingly pass along information that shafts Haven like revealing Bolthole's location, or general vicinity.

Parnell was really pissed off with Pierre's CPS, because they're the ones who betrayed and backstabbed Haven, and his Navy's honor smeared to stop them, not to mention throwing him on Hades for quite a few years.

He probably does not have any burning hatred of the Republic of Haven, because it's brought Haven's honor back, without being the conquistador he'd served. If anything, he'd be on the sidelines, slow clapping with a smile on his lips.

It was established in House of Steel that Parnell was still in the League effectively acting as an advocate for the Republic of Haven. And I don't think Parnell would let that information out willingly, but considering the situation the Manderians are in, I could easily see them ordering a team to black bag him to try to figure out what happened out there. For that matter, I could see the Alignment doing something similar to find bolthole. Or a prospective secessionist hiring him to "consult" with their SDF.

Duckk wrote:Not fighting the war? Tenth Fleet would beg to differ. And we have no idea what's happening in other theaters.

Sure, 10th Fleet took out an OFS administered Shell sector of very limited economic or military relevance.

And we pretty much know nothing is being done as of July 1922 or we would have heard something about in ART.

Gee, I wonder if David hasn't talked about this before...

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/271/1

Yes, the argument is essentially, the MA wont do this, period.
Which is probably true, but in a situation when they are done and have nothing left to lose?

As said, the story wont go there, but it doesnt have to be the ghost fleet blowing up planets.
Just use the nanotech stuff on a tac officer (yeah i know, too complex probably).

Anyway, personally i very much doubt that anyone will think twice about galaxy wide conspiracies when billions upon billions are dead. Catastrophic events of this magnitude tend to develop a live of their own, and the SLN will be forced into action, regardless of whom some higher ups might think could be responsible as well.

Duckk wrote:You would have to first install said provisional government into power and have said government be officially recognized (instead of everyone rolling their eyes and ignoring you in favor of the government that has been ruling for generations). Just randomly lobbing missiles at any planet before you can get your "provisional government" in place is putting the cart before the horse.

Don't be silly, the legitimate government is the government the SL recognizes. What some band of neo-barbs wants to pretend is going on is of no concern to the SLN. And I have been formally told by the SL Foreign Minister to offer all possible assistance to the legitimate government to aid them in liberating the planet from the rebellious forces.