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Tech they ought to have.

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Re: Tech they ought to have.
Post by Daryl   » Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:21 am

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I don't believe that any SiFi universe has had its tech analysed and debated remotely as much as this one. At times reading the arguments between some of the train spotters here I realise that they are treating it all as real instead of a story that started decades ago.

Personally I wouldn't even be able to start constructing a universe as detailed and consistent as this one, however there are obvious holes in tech and economics. This does not invalidate a damn good read though.
If pressed to point out some holes I'd look at computer design stagnation and the small proportion of GDP being allocated to life and death struggles.
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Re: Tech they ought to have.
Post by kzt   » Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:54 am

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Daryl wrote:I don't believe that any SiFi universe has had its tech analysed and debated remotely as much as this one. At times reading the arguments between some of the train spotters here I realise that they are treating it all as real instead of a story that started decades ago.

Personally I wouldn't even be able to start constructing a universe as detailed and consistent as this one, however there are obvious holes in tech and economics. This does not invalidate a damn good read though.
If pressed to point out some holes I'd look at computer design stagnation and the small proportion of GDP being allocated to life and death struggles.

Well, sure.

The economic assumptions behind the society are kind of nuts too. The claim was made that you can only have 1% of the population in the military without having the economy of the SKM collapse, but based on the manufacturing numbers, essentially 90% of the GDP seems to come from less than 1% of the population. Exactly what do the other billion plus people do that is so essential to the economy that recruiting some more feminist dance therapists and maybe some deconstructors of Soviet-Era Russian Literature via mime performance would crash the economy?

The US had a vastly higher percentage in uniform during WW2, and a much higher percentage during the 1960s, which was not exactly a period of economic stagnation.
Last edited by kzt on Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tech they ought to have.
Post by Relax   » Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:56 am

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Daryl wrote:I don't believe that any SiFi universe has had its tech analysed and debated remotely as much as this one. At times reading the arguments between some of the train spotters here I realise that they are treating it all as real instead of a story that started decades ago.

Personally I wouldn't even be able to start constructing a universe as detailed and consistent as this one, however there are obvious holes in tech and economics. This does not invalidate a damn good read though.


Maybe because the HH universe is set 2000 years in advance and yet the tech is straight out of the 60's when it was started to be written in the mid 90's...

What kind of weird mental hoops are you jumping through where discussing a topic in regards to how fake it is, invalidates a good read? The fact one can discuss the gross particulars in error of reality rather VALIDATES its good read status.

If realism is required to notch a "good read" sticker, there is not a single viable fiction book and most NF as well...

<< Shakes Head In Amusement >>
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Re: Tech they ought to have.
Post by jgnfld   » Mon Sep 12, 2016 4:07 am

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You are quite correct given your assumptions. But, to paraphrase Inigo Montoya, I don't think it--programming in the far future--means to RFC what you think it means.

Relax wrote:
Somtaaw wrote:
I can take your chess playing computer, and move it to forcing it to play a human playing backgamon. Suddenly your super-chess winner is going to freak out,

Physics & logic do not change. Manipulation of the data does not change. Either the sensors have high enough fidelity or they do not. All manipulation of the data in a few seconds a human can do through a GUI, a computer can do thousands of times using every single available permutation. New algorithms do not magically appear. If you wish to believe some chump is going to magically write millions of lines of code in a couple minutes, upload, reboot, test, then use them, all during a battle;(as if the captain would allow them to) then enjoy your fantasy super genius hyperactive tasmanian devil utopia... :roll:

Drop the SF trope BS dude. They are as stupid as the Rom-Com tropes.

Try this reality:
Computers >>> Humans
In everything other than design
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Re: Tech they ought to have.
Post by Relax   » Mon Sep 12, 2016 4:23 am

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jgnfld wrote:You are quite correct given your assumptions. But, to paraphrase Inigo Montoya, I don't think it--programming in the far future--means to RFC what you think it means.


What is the title of this TOPIC thread... :?: :roll: :evil:
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Re: Tech they ought to have.
Post by Joat42   » Mon Sep 12, 2016 4:35 am

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Relax wrote:..snip..
Who wins every time? A computer playing chess or the human? The computer by a vast margin.
..snip..

If we are talking about chess or any other situation where all the variables are known a computer will most likely always win which isn't really relevant to battles. But if we continue the chess analogy, a battlefield is like a chess board where you can't see all the opponents pieces or their correct positions. The pieces may even move in non-standard ways.

That is why when we are talking about battles where not all information is known I rather have a human in the loop than a computer.

---
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Re: Tech they ought to have.
Post by Relax   » Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:24 am

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Joat42 wrote:
Relax wrote:..snip..
Who wins every time? A computer playing chess or the human? The computer by a vast margin.
..snip..

a battlefield is like a chess board where you can't see all the opponents pieces or their correct positions


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Uh, this is the vacuum of space, yes you can... An object in motion remains in motion... There is no stealth good enough in the Honorverse and there is also no where to HIDE.

White noise generation(dazzlers) comes down to S/N ratio of your sensors and the prebuilt algorithms for processing. None of which is something a "human intuition" can see through as it happens in milli-nano second or shorter time space.
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Re: Tech they ought to have.
Post by Daryl   » Mon Sep 12, 2016 6:07 am

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Come again, I said exactly the same thing as you did but in a slightly different way. A slightly off technical approach would only matter if the story wasn't well written.
Now a current David Drake series has an interstellar war analogous to the Trojan war times. He is a damn good writer but I have difficulty accepting that an ongoing viable means of combat at these speeds and distances is ramming, to the extent that they design specialist ships for it. I like trimeres as well as anyone, but not in this context. Still I am enjoying the series.

Relax wrote:
Daryl wrote:I don't believe that any SiFi universe has had its tech analysed and debated remotely as much as this one. At times reading the arguments between some of the train spotters here I realise that they are treating it all as real instead of a story that started decades ago.

Personally I wouldn't even be able to start constructing a universe as detailed and consistent as this one, however there are obvious holes in tech and economics. This does not invalidate a damn good read though.


Maybe because the HH universe is set 2000 years in advance and yet the tech is straight out of the 60's when it was started to be written in the mid 90's...

What kind of weird mental hoops are you jumping through where discussing a topic in regards to how fake it is, invalidates a good read? The fact one can discuss the gross particulars in error of reality rather VALIDATES its good read status.

If realism is required to notch a "good read" sticker, there is not a single viable fiction book and most NF as well...

<< Shakes Head In Amusement >>
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Re: Tech they ought to have.
Post by SharkHunter   » Mon Sep 12, 2016 6:36 am

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Given the speed of calculation and transmission required to control a missile at millions of kilometers against enemy electronic countermeasures/CM fire, etc. [assuming near peer level competency]...

...realistically, there is no requirement to have human intervention or even humans aboard to transit a wormhole. Which so far consists of the right person flipping a set of switches to configure the Warshawski sail when the sensors indicate the need to o so... within a several second period.

Similarly, the need to have humans do the astrogation calculations at all, except in odd circumstances. Though likely what the astrogator is doing is selecting from optimum computer generated plans.
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Re: Tech they ought to have.
Post by Joat42   » Mon Sep 12, 2016 6:46 am

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Relax wrote:
Relax wrote:..snip..
Who wins every time? A computer playing chess or the human? The computer by a vast margin.
..snip..
Joat42 wrote:a battlefield is like a chess board where you can't see all the opponents pieces or their correct positions


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Uh, this is the vacuum of space, yes you can... An object in motion remains in motion... There is no stealth good enough in the Honorverse and there is also no where to HIDE.

White noise generation(dazzlers) comes down to S/N ratio of your sensors and the prebuilt algorithms for processing. None of which is something a "human intuition" can see through as it happens in milli-nano second or shorter time space.

Now you are just disingenuous. What you are saying is that any kind of ECM is not necessary because missiles doesn't maneuver, and good sensors, fast computers and algorithms can predict anything. And modern planes doesn't use chaff either, or any other kind of countermeasure, because computers!

And your reasoning about why humans can't react to events at 1 ms to 1 ns scale is faulty, since the whole point of the human in the loop is to set up strategies and tactics dependent on what the enemy does or doesn't and then hand over control to computers.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.

Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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