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Honorverse system destroyer

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Re: Honorverse system destroyer
Post by The E   » Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:58 am

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The thing is, speculation can take many forms. There's the whole area of speculation that's based around finding novel applications for the existing capabilities within the framework we know of, and there's "but what if this fundamental constraint doesn't exist" speculation.

One of those leads to interesting discussions (such as, what's the minimum viable size for a CLAC? What can Manticore do to ensure its tech superiority in the future?). The other leads to "but what if we could fire missiles through hyperspace" or "we can detect spider drive ships by building a giant sphere of satellites shooting lasers at each other". The latter is inherently pointless, because once you start throwing out the constraints, what's the limit? Like, we could just as well start talking about the combat potential of a 100 mton ship with a magic compensator that allows it to pull 800g of accel. Or what would happen if we could put SD-scale grasers on dispatch boats. Or what the potential applications of a Keyhole-equipped Destroyer are. Once you throw out constraints, discussions about what-ifs become meaningless.

And that's the mistake Skimper makes, constantly. For him, constraints do not exist. There is no limit to what he thinks can be done in the Honorverse. As a result, his designs and daydreams are rubbish, because he's essentially using authorial fiat to declare everything he comes up with as the best thing ever.
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Re: Honorverse system destroyer
Post by MAD-4A   » Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:02 am

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Somtaaw wrote:
First of all, the bubblewall a fort generates is NOT it's propulsion, it's a spherical sidewall, which is 100% totally NOT related to propulsion in the slightest...
Never said it was. I said it was an example of a field that's not a flat square and doesn't have nodes arranged in circles on each end, so YES they can be designed in different ways, the wedge is just the working standard for that time.
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Almost only counts in Horseshoes and Nuclear Weapons. I almost got the Hand-Grenade out the window does not count.
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Re: Honorverse system destroyer
Post by MAD-4A   » Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:18 am

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The E wrote:And that's the mistake Skimper makes, constantly... his designs and daydreams are rubbish,
Then why do you follow his threads? its Sci-fi there really are no constraints - its called imagination, if you don't like it, then ignore his posts.
I think we have already agreed that with "current" tech it would be impossible! (which is why Mesa still exists) but that is not to say others can't explore what possibilities it would take to make it happen. as in the old show Mythbusters. they would take a Myth and do the engineering specified in the myth (like using a small amount of dynamite to clear dry concrete from a cement truck) then if it didn't work (as with the one that was half full) they would explore what it would take to make it work (and in that case spread tiny truck parts over a wide area!) that's how these discussions work, and I think a lot of people learn more than they admit in the process.
No idea is rubbish, except that an idea is rubbish.
Skimper has imagination, some of you others need some.
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Almost only counts in Horseshoes and Nuclear Weapons. I almost got the Hand-Grenade out the window does not count.
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Re: Honorverse system destroyer
Post by Eagleeye   » Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:29 am

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MAD-4A wrote:
The E wrote:And that's the mistake Skimper makes, constantly... his designs and daydreams are rubbish,
Then why do you follow his threads? its Sci-fi there really are no constraints - its called imagination, if you don't like it, then ignore his posts.
I think we have already agreed that with "current" tech it would be impossible! (which is why Mesa still exists) but that is not to say others can't explore what possibilities it would take to make it happen. as in the old show Mythbusters. they would take a Myth and do the engineering specified in the myth (like using a small amount of dynamite to clear dry concrete from a cement truck) then if it didn't work (as with the one that was half full) they would explore what it would take to make it work (and in that case spread tiny truck parts over a wide area!) that's how these discussions work, and I think a lot of people learn more than they admit in the process.

One thing. This is primarily David's universe. He sets the constraints for it, says what kind of development is possible and what isn't - and he's the only one who can change these constraints. Anyone who deliberately ignores these constraints really don't have to ask why so much eggs are landing in his or her face.
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Re: Honorverse system destroyer
Post by Duckk   » Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:38 am

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MAD-4A wrote:No idea is rubbish, except that an idea is rubbish.Skimper has imagination, some of you others need some.


Then taking it to the logical conclusion the hyper generator can rip a hole in the universe to unleash the Chaos God Khorne, or traveling to Equestria where we can have magical adventures with talking ponies. Who says that can't happen? Future technology can do anything!

There is a difference between speculation based on existing facts, where one can find genuinely different interpretations of existing data (such as the BC(P) topics we've had in the past), and speculation based on completely inventing stuff from whole cloth on the basis "just because I can". If you're doing the latter, then it's no longer David's Honorverse.
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Shields at 50%, taunting at 100%! - Tom Pope
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Re: Honorverse system destroyer
Post by Joat42   » Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:42 am

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MAD-4A wrote:
The E wrote:And that's the mistake Skimper makes, constantly... his designs and daydreams are rubbish,
Then why do you follow his threads? its Sci-fi there really are no constraints - its called imagination, if you don't like it, then ignore his posts.
I think we have already agreed that with "current" tech it would be impossible! (which is why Mesa still exists) but that is not to say others can't explore what possibilities it would take to make it happen. as in the old show Mythbusters. they would take a Myth and do the engineering specified in the myth (like using a small amount of dynamite to clear dry concrete from a cement truck) then if it didn't work (as with the one that was half full) they would explore what it would take to make it work (and in that case spread tiny truck parts over a wide area!) that's how these discussions work, and I think a lot of people learn more than they admit in the process.
No idea is rubbish, except that an idea is rubbish.
Skimper has imagination, some of you others need some.

So you are saying I can take the one ring from Frodo, hop into my stratobomber and fly over Mt. Doom, strap the ring to a 50 MTon nuke and drop it into the vulcano? Yeah! Take that Sauron!

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: Honorverse system destroyer
Post by MAD-4A   » Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:45 am

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Eagleeye wrote:One thing. This is primarily David's universe. He sets the constraints for it, says what kind of development is possible and what isn't - and he's the only one who can change these constraints. Anyone who deliberately ignores these constraints really don't have to ask why so much eggs are landing in his or her face.
No, he sets the constraints within his books, I set the constraints of Honorverse in my head. When I'm reading the books, if I want to ignore something (like some Star Trek plasma conduit creap) then I can, when I'm posting and we're discussing something new, then I can discuss other changes and possible "breakthroughs" (like... oh... IDK... FTL com systems, or new impeller nodes, no-one has developed before) which could be presented if HE chooses to. And, if he does, then it would be you who were wrong.
If you don't like it, you don't have to post, if you want to post where you think it "breaks the rules" that's fine, if done curiously, then it could be helpful, and be informative of others who may not have known "that" rule was there. Otherwise, you can leave'em alone.
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Almost only counts in Horseshoes and Nuclear Weapons. I almost got the Hand-Grenade out the window does not count.
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Re: Honorverse system destroyer
Post by MAD-4A   » Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:48 am

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Joat42 wrote:So you are saying I can take the one ring from Frodo, hop into my stratobomber and fly over Mt. Doom, strap the ring to a 50 MTon nuke and drop it into the vulcano? Yeah! Take that Sauron!
You just did! in your own imagination. Now I doubt RFC will put that in his book, but that's up to him.
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Almost only counts in Horseshoes and Nuclear Weapons. I almost got the Hand-Grenade out the window does not count.
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Re: Honorverse system destroyer
Post by MAD-4A   » Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:58 am

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Duckk wrote:... Future technology can do anything!
No, Sci-Fi tech can, it's all imagination anyway.

Duckk wrote:...There is a difference between speculation based on existing facts...
There are no "Facts" (aside from real things like distance and the speed-of-light) there are no "facts" about impeller wedges or hyperspace, or accel comps, none of those exist so it's all speculation.

Duckk wrote:...then it's no longer David's Honorverse.
No, we are discussing our ideas. That makes it our Honorverse, and the discussion is how it fits in (or doesn't) with each others and RCF's Honorverse. that's where the exchange of ideas comes from, if someones going to stifle someone else's ideas by calling them names then they don't belong here. It's OK to point out flaws in there idea as compared to what's in the books, just do it courteously and without stifling their imagination and willingness to express that on a forum for that. If you can find ways to make it work then that would also be appreciated.
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Almost only counts in Horseshoes and Nuclear Weapons. I almost got the Hand-Grenade out the window does not count.
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Re: Honorverse system destroyer
Post by Somtaaw   » Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:21 am

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MAD-4A wrote:
Somtaaw wrote:
First of all, the bubblewall a fort generates is NOT it's propulsion, it's a spherical sidewall, which is 100% totally NOT related to propulsion in the slightest...
Never said it was. I said it was an example of a field that's not a flat square and doesn't have nodes arranged in circles on each end, so YES they can be designed in different ways, the wedge is just the working standard for that time.


Really? You didn't say bubblewall's arent propulsion? But your post immediately prior to this one

MAD-4A wrote:[
Somtaaw wrote:... since even the largest wedges right now are only ...
(key word - since most here are missing it)The "bubble wedge" mentioned earlier was, I think, meant as the Bubble "sidewall" used on forts, which shows that the gravity fields produced by nodes [b]CAN be designed into more than just "big flat square plain of this size" the sidewalls and bow-walls show that too.[/b]


Gee, that sure looks like you are putting sidewalls and bubblewalls in with nodes. We don't even actually know where/how a forts nodes are placed, since they aren't actually ships. We know due to the general wedge physics, they absolutely MUST be within 20% of the ends, but are the forts larger spindle shapes like ships, or are they more like shorter & rounder/fatter CLAC's?

We do know, that while wedge nodes are peripherally related to sidewall strength, from how beta squared nodes on early LAC's doubled their sidewalls, the more important strength for sidewalls comes from the dedicated sidewall generators mounted along the flanks said sidewall is being generated. Now again, for ships since we don't have any detailed information on said bubblewall, the sidewall stitches together the roof and floor impellers. No impeller = no sidewall at all.

Bow walls, after they evolved the buckler, appears to have altered sidewalls, but it could simply be an evolution of the bubblewalls that the forts mount. But everything relating to the wedge & sidewall system, in total dictates how the impeller nodes MUST be mounted in a ring, where in relation to the ship said ring must go, and what shape a generated wedge is.


And speaking of shape, don't you think, in approximately 800 years since impellers were initially developed, that various shapes would have been tested before the square was settled on?

If there were even the slightest speed increase by "changing the shape", it would be used instead? In 800 years, it has been the square, the whole square and nothing but the square for impellers. They were the only ship drive until the Spider-Drive, which is also ridiculously slow and requires an entirely different way of ship building and from the various bits, I think it's also impossible to mount both spider drive & impeller [could be wrong here, admitting up front]
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