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SPOILER_ Damien Harahap

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Re: SPOILER_ Damien Harahap
Post by noblehunter   » Tue Sep 06, 2016 10:14 am

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How responsible is he for the events? His "assurances" of support may have helped kick off the revolutions and his weapons would have helped them be serious enough to need suppression by KEW. But I thought Manticore made his lies true before anyone died waiting for cavalry that wasn't coming.

He probably kept using the same code name to make sure the Sollies knew the revolts were all supported by the same guy. Considering the POV we have on Earth seem to be the only competent intel officers, they need all the help they can get.
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Re: SPOILER_ Damien Harahap
Post by Rincewind   » Tue Sep 06, 2016 4:07 pm

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n7axw wrote:Actually, I have some sympathy for the guy. He is born on a planet subject to the tender mercies of OFS and the transtellars, betters his lot by taking the only option available to him by joining the Gandarmie (sp), carries out the missions assigned to him flawlessly, narrowly avoids being assassinated by his superiors, again takes what seems to be the only option from his own point of view by going to work for Mesa.

What we are looking at here is a hardscrabble struggle to survive and even thrive by a man who never really finds his place, always vulnerable to superiors who regard him as a tool to be disposed of when needed.

I am not condoning a single thing he has done and firmly agree that he deserves whatever penalty is exacted against him.

But the universe has not been kind to Damien Harahap and his view of life is both cynical and grim. He at least deserves consideration from a three demensional point of view rather than the pasteboard cutout of a villian.

Don

-


There is an old saying I remember that applies to Damien Harahap.

It goes; 'The oppressed in one country can make the worst oppressors in another.'
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Re: SPOILER_ Damien Harahap
Post by WeirdlyWired   » Tue Sep 06, 2016 4:25 pm

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"Yeah, using the same handle basically every place he worked was pretty damn stupid. Must've been an ego thing."

How much easier, though, for the OFS to trace everything back to the Manties if there is one contact name in common. After all how many beautiful blondes working for Manpower can there be.
Helas,chou, Je m'en fache.
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Re: SPOILER_ Damien Harahap
Post by kzt   » Tue Sep 06, 2016 4:50 pm

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WeirdlyWired wrote:"Yeah, using the same handle basically every place he worked was pretty damn stupid. Must've been an ego thing."

How much easier, though, for the OFS to trace everything back to the Manties if there is one contact name in common. After all how many beautiful blondes working for Manpower can there be.

It's the same name he used when he worked for OFS against the manties...
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Re: SPOILER_ Damien Harahap
Post by saber964   » Tue Sep 06, 2016 5:57 pm

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Somtaaw wrote:
tootall wrote:His crimes are of such magnitude that he deserves a pulser dart-NO MATTER- what intel he possesses.


I'm with n7 here, Damien's actions however repugnant, are merely those of someone trying to survive however he can. He's got a lot in common with our favorite "super woman" Thandi Palane, both of them came from OFS administered dumps and entered service with whatever Solarian League branch they could, simply because as bad as THAT is/was, it's better than staying on their homeworld.

And keep in mind here, Thandi was a Solarian Marine, which honestly weren't much better than the Gendarmerie, and were essentially uniformed 'thugs' themselves.

A Rising Thunder, Ch 30 wrote:“I know you’re aware Marine Intelligence is under the ONI umbrella, Natsuko,” he said. “What you may not be aware of, since we don’t exactly advertise it, is that we’re a pretty independent outfit. There are a lot of reasons for that, but, frankly, the main one is that we got dropped in the crapper once too often by faulty Navy intelligence. We got tired of taking it in the neck because a bunch of Navy pukes—no offense, Daud and Irene—didn’t know their asses from their elbows where ground operations were concerned. Things work a lot better with us handling our own intel functions, and Frontier Fleet got behind us and supported us because they’re the ones who usually have to carry the can from the Navy side
-snip-
“I know you’re aware of the kind of shit the Gendarmerie gets involved in out in the Protectorates. Trust me, what the Corps gets handed can be even worse, and sometimes the poor SOB theoretically in command of the ground op doesn’t have any idea what kind of snake pit he’s about to drop his Marines into. What with transstellars in bed with OFS, local collaborators eager to sell out for the best price they can get, and poor damned bastards too dumb to realize they can’t fight, it can turn into a cluster fuck in nothing flat. Because of that, one of the things we try to do is keep track of as many players as possible. In fact, for the last fifteen or twenty T-years, Brigadier Osterhaut’s been keeping track of as many Navy players as possible. An awful lot of senior flag officers have crawled into bed with the rest of the bottom feeders, and she likes to be able to give our Marine expeditionary force COs at least an unofficial, ‘we-never-had-this-conversation’ heads-up if one of the senior Navy officers involved in his operation has irons of his own in the fire.”


We don't know exactly what Thandi has done in the Marines, just that some of it was distasteful. We do know that Luis Rozsak was on Boniface, under the general authority of OFS and personally executed even the dogs and cats, because his orders dictated that very point.[quote is in Crown of Slaves] Admittedly, he only did it as a mocking insult to his 'commander' at the time, but he still did it, and at a time when he was also a known 'rising star' in the Solarian Navy and still had to get his hands dirty, so what Thandi would have had to do as a "filthy verge worlder" would guaranteed be worse, and she personally caused any deaths she may had done while under orders.



Damien Harahap, on the other hand, while encouraging other people into rebellions and promising all manners of 'support', has a direct kill count in perhaps the hundreds. And even he doesn't like doing what he does, but as far as he could see it was both the only game in town, and that "everybody else was doing it, or worse". And the Solarian League hadn't been challenged yet, so emigrating somewhere else after whatever 'mandatory' service was only a step-down from working for what amounts to the Solarian Federal Government. Assuming of course, he wasn't retired with extreme prejudice anyways.



What the SLMC gets stuck with is the clean up if OFS and Gendarmie get there head handed to them in the initial stages of a uprising intervention. Look at what the MLF did in the first few hours of their own bid to overthrow Lombroso. IIRC there was a OFS intervention battalion that suffered 60% casualties in friendly fire incident by a SLMC battalion. Also IIRC most of the SLMC personnel come from protectorate and verge worlds so have little if any sympathy for OFS and the Gendarmie. Also remember the SLMC intelligence LTC in Daud group about how he was tasked to give deep background briefing to Marine units CO's before they got dropped into a hot LZ on some planet. The briefings probably included things like whose really on the take and how bad they've been screwing it up.
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Re: SPOILER_ Damien Harahap
Post by Fireflair   » Tue Sep 06, 2016 7:05 pm

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The notion of Damien being a big role in the next book had occurred to me after all the face time he got in this one. I feel that this is a character we can could have had a lot less face time with, however. Just as there wasn't a need for all the different resistance groups to be fleshed out nearly so much. Damien could have had half or less time in the book but still have gotten his importance across while fleshing the character out. The extra space and word count could have gone to advancing the story. Say.. To the point of Beowulf's events?

We get a clear description of Damien and how smart he is. The man recognizes that his employers are impressive and powerful folk almost from the start, and his understanding of the organization just grows with each event he's a part of. I was struck more by the commentary from Damien's thoughts about the medical processes he went through. The implants and improved longevity of the anti-aging treatments were interesting. Healing nanites too? Seems like the super soldiers of the Alignment could be pretty well improved compared to normals.
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Re: SPOILER_ Damien Harahap
Post by drothgery   » Tue Sep 06, 2016 7:38 pm

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kzt wrote:
drothgery wrote:There's a non-trivial chance that the assassination of his boss and attempt on him were in fact part of the Alignment's plan to recruit him, though with Bardassano dead we'll probably never know. Which is fine.

I thought so, but comments later suggested they were in fact going to recruit his boss, but she was dead by the time they arrived.

I thought (though my memory could be failing) that was said out loud by one of the people doing the recruiting; it wasn't someone's thoughts. And, well, I have less than complete trust in the word of Alignment operatives for some reason.
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Re: SPOILER_ Damien Harahap
Post by Somtaaw   » Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:36 pm

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saber964 wrote:What the SLMC gets stuck with is the clean up if OFS and Gendarmie get there head handed to them in the initial stages of a uprising intervention. Look at what the MLF did in the first few hours of their own bid to overthrow Lombroso. IIRC there was a OFS intervention battalion that suffered 60% casualties in friendly fire incident by a SLMC battalion. Also IIRC most of the SLMC personnel come from protectorate and verge worlds so have little if any sympathy for OFS and the Gendarmie. Also remember the SLMC intelligence LTC in Daud group about how he was tasked to give deep background briefing to Marine units CO's before they got dropped into a hot LZ on some planet. The briefings probably included things like whose really on the take and how bad they've been screwing it up.


Oh I agree that the SLMC isn't the primary jackboots put to Verge and Shell worlds necks. But if the Gendarmerie isn't enough alone the SLMC gets sent in to finish the job, so their hands are still dirty if not as much. Dirty is still dirty however. So, almost without a doubt, Thandi had done more than a few things she regrets, but she also knows that whatever terrible things she has done with the SLMC (prior to Torch) was still better than staying on her homeworld.

And I pointed out the SLMC staff at SLN HQ with Daud in my quote, they give briefings but that's to try and protect the Marines from the dirty business they're about to drop into. And in my quote, Frontier Fleet supports the SLMC from the Navy side in those operations where they got tasked to handle things. Which is why I included Luis Rozsak in my post about "doing really dirty and bad things", and Rozsak was a rising star so if even he couldn't have avoided doing something like executing an entire settlement right down to the pets, Thandi (and others) had to do much worse. Who then take it out on the Gendarmerie whenever they can, like that action you mentioned with 60% Gendarm casualties due to "friendly fire".
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Re: SPOILER_ Damien Harahap
Post by n7axw   » Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:50 pm

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tootall wrote:[

Don wrote

But the universe has not been kind to Damien Harahap and his view of life is both cynical and grim. He at least deserves consideration from a three demensional point of view rather than the pasteboard cutout of a villian.


Besides the Alin, any other individuals with a greater body count of innocents? (and his is in the millions-) (I can't get past that.)


I'm not nominating him for sainthood or suggesting that he shouldn't be held accountable. I'm merely pointing out that there is more than one way to be victimized which Damien and many others like him have been. In a way it's the classic catch 22 without a good way out.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: SPOILER_ Damien Harahap
Post by Brigade XO   » Wed Sep 07, 2016 5:49 pm

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Fireflair wrote:The notion of Damien being a big role in the next book had occurred to me after all the face time he got in this one. I feel that this is a character we can could have had a lot less face time with, however. Just as there wasn't a need for all the different resistance groups to be fleshed out nearly so much. Damien could have had half or less time in the book but still have gotten his importance across while fleshing the character out. The extra space and word count could have gone to advancing the story. Say.. To the point of Beowulf's events?

We get a clear description of Damien and how smart he is. The man recognizes that his employers are impressive and powerful folk almost from the start, and his understanding of the organization just grows with each event he's a part of. I was struck more by the commentary from Damien's thoughts about the medical processes he went through. The implants and improved longevity of the anti-aging treatments were interesting. Healing nanites too? Seems like the super soldiers of the Alignment could be pretty well improved compared to normals.


I haven't read SOV yet and won't get to it till sometime in October....BUT, if the above mentioned "improvements" to Damien's body are "basic" upgrades for special assets and probably the tip of the iceberg for the Alignment variation on Marines, I can see GA Marines and anybody else that gets engaged with them making dam sure to perhaps use a bit of "overkill" when shooting at the MA.
You want super-soldiers, we can start using tribarrels & plasma rifles and work up from there. "How many times did you say to shoot him in the head, Sarg?"
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