ATST Snippet #6 (I think)

Dilandu wrote:

runsforcelery wrote:The reason for this little digression of mine is that shortly after the issuance of his general order, several Confederate chamber pot manufacturers found a profitable and arguably patriotic market by producing chamber pots with his picture on the bottom and the words “A Salute to Mister Spoons” around the rim.

I did mention that Nahrmahn’s become a student of Old Earth history, didn’t I?

Yeah, but he seems to dig too deep. The art of propaganda became... well, much more refined and developed in XX century, than those first attempts of XIX.

Really from what I can recall of propaganda published recently by ISIS and others as well as stuff from other conflicts (including WWII & WWI) it hasn't really been that far removed from school yard humour.
Yes some pieces have certainly been but many are not.

I'm like quite a few of the other posters in that it will appeal to the people it is aimed at those not as widely read as others and for a bit of comic relief.

See Dilandu it didn't last too long before we had to disagree to disagree ....

These balloons are being deployed onboard ships. One assumes the cities and KH VIIs will have them but not the galleons. Yet, as we saw with Hektor's duel with Serpent, the RCN needs fire control to accurately target anything with any sort of range at all.

I suspect that Nahrmahn's brainchild from the last book is a pneumatic fire control system. I know there are designs for a pneumatic gyroscope. I can envision trigger mechanisms using pressurized air in conjunction with the gyroscope. Put them together and we have a pneumatic fire control system that may refine accuracy for truly long shots with the KH VIIs 8" & 10" guns. Add the balloons and the gunnery officers will have information to refine their aim.

Absent a fire control system and there is no point to having balloons on board ship.

PeterZ wrote:..snip..
Absent a fire control system and there is no point to having balloons on board ship.

Uhm, yes there is. The practical range for effective fire increases significantly - not necessarily against other ships.

Joat42 wrote:

PeterZ wrote:..snip..
Absent a fire control system and there is no point to having balloons on board ship.

Uhm, yes there is. The practical range for effective fire increases significantly - not necessarily against other ships.

Firing at a ship and sea or at something on shore in line of sight mitigates the instability of the firing platform because the gunner is trying to find an intersection of the gun's firing arc and the target. When firing beyond line sight, the gunner is trying to estimate where the firing arc will end.

Absent a fire control system to reduce any estimation when to trigger in relation to the ships motion will result in a miss. The longer the distance the bigger the miss. Using a balloon without that fire control is just having someone who can see just how far the shots are missing. I don't believe that human senses can adequately account for the small adjustments in aim as that aim relates to the movement of the ship.

PeterZ wrote:

PeterZ wrote:..snip..
Absent a fire control system and there is no point to having balloons on board ship.

Joat42 wrote:Uhm, yes there is. The practical range for effective fire increases significantly - not necessarily against other ships.

Firing at a ship and sea or at something on shore in line of sight mitigates the instability of the firing platform because the gunner is trying to find an intersection of the gun's firing arc and the target. When firing beyond line sight, the gunner is trying to estimate where the firing arc will end.

Absent a fire control system to reduce any estimation when to trigger in relation to the ships motion will result in a miss. The longer the distance the bigger the miss. Using a balloon without that fire control is just having someone who can see just how far the shots are missing. I don't believe that human senses can adequately account for the small adjustments in aim as that aim relates to the movement of the ship.

If they have no reliable horizon to use there is always a spirit level. And there is no need for pin point accuracy, area denial bombardment is just fine.

Btw, you are essentially saying that HMS Vulcano and it's sister ship wouldn't be practical.

Joat42 wrote:
Btw, you are essentially saying that HMS Vulcano and it's sister ship wouldn't be practical.

Historically bomb vessels vere effective. Of course, inside their specialized function - bombardment of coastal fortification. Outside this function they were just useless.

Joat42 wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Firing at a ship and sea or at something on shore in line of sight mitigates the instability of the firing platform because the gunner is trying to find an intersection of the gun's firing arc and the target. When firing beyond line sight, the gunner is trying to estimate where the firing arc will end.

Absent a fire control system to reduce any estimation when to trigger in relation to the ships motion will result in a miss. The longer the distance the bigger the miss. Using a balloon without that fire control is just having someone who can see just how far the shots are missing. I don't believe that human senses can adequately account for the small adjustments in aim as that aim relates to the movement of the ship.

If they have no reliable horizon to use there is always a spirit level. And there is no need for pin point accuracy, area denial bombardment is just fine.

Btw, you are essentially saying that HMS Vulcano and it's sister ship wouldn't be practical.

No, I am not. Volcano did not fire beyond line of sight. It targeted shore installations from within old fashioned smoothbore artillery range while using springs to further reduce movement. The margin for error was far smaller than had Volcano fired from 10-20 miles away rocking in the open ocean.

Recall that even the cities (against Desnair) fired on a rather flat arc to minimize the need for extreme accuracy. Also, the cities fired while in a protected channel, not in the open ocean. So, while the KH VIIs could get in close enough to anchor, set springs and then begin a balloon aided bombardment, it seems to me that to require the ship be anchored would limit the utility. Since, the mechanism for a non-electrical fire control is within the EoC's technological capability, why not implement one?

PeterZ wrote:..snip..
Recall that even the cities (against Desnair) fired on a rather flat arc to minimize the need for extreme accuracy. Also, the cities fired while in a protected channel, not in the open ocean. So, while the KH VIIs could get in close enough to anchor, set springs and then begin a balloon aided bombardment, it seems to me that to require the ship be anchored would limit the utility. Since, the mechanism for a non-electrical fire control is within the EoC's technological capability, why not implement one?

The cities used spotters for indirect fire in Desnair and they also steamed upstream and fired on target, so why is there no point to have spotters in a balloon for the KH VII's without a fire control system?

And what you are proposing (for it to work) is that the KH VII's must have a fire-control system that is fully gyro-stabilized and time to target with tracking. Sounds like war-porn to me.

Joat42 wrote:

PeterZ wrote:..snip..
Recall that even the cities (against Desnair) fired on a rather flat arc to minimize the need for extreme accuracy. Also, the cities fired while in a protected channel, not in the open ocean. So, while the KH VIIs could get in close enough to anchor, set springs and then begin a balloon aided bombardment, it seems to me that to require the ship be anchored would limit the utility. Since, the mechanism for a non-electrical fire control is within the EoC's technological capability, why not implement one?

The cities used spotters for indirect fire in Desnair and they also steamed upstream and fired on target, so why is there no point to have spotters in a balloon for the KH VII's without a fire control system?

And what you are proposing (for it to work) is that the KH VII's must have a fire-control system that is fully gyro-stabilized and time to target with tracking. Sounds like war-porn to me.

I don't recall that cities used any spotters. I don't recall that the cities fired beyond line of sight in their Desnair raid.

Who said anything about time to target tracking? I asserted that Nahrmahn's brainchild from a previous books was a workable solution for a pneumatic gyro. That gyro connected to the firing mechanism would trigger the gun when it was level. All this system does is to reduce the number of variables the gunner needs to adjust for to fire his gun.

How is this war porn?

1st in reply to DMcC I don't think langhorn should be made a saint look at his many people died even after landing that could have been saved if that megalomaniac hadn't got his way.
Also great snippet I've now got this image in my mind of inquisitors banging on peoples doors demanding to see their chamber pot