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ATST snippet #5

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Re: ATST snippet #5
Post by Thrandir   » Sat Sep 03, 2016 8:58 pm

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dobriennm wrote:
But using Zinc has two advantage: 1) No reaction in water - safer to transport and 2) useful for iron/Steel ships as cathodic protection in seawater (they may already be using it so they may have it readily available as ingots)


Zinc does react in water admittedly slowly compared to something like sodium etc.. but Zinc still does react producing small amounts of hydrogen and turning the water acidic and therefore speeding up the reaction over time.
Zinc powder on the other hand is highly reactive with water.
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Re: ATST snippet #5
Post by DMcCunney   » Sat Sep 03, 2016 9:51 pm

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wkernochan wrote:(2) Is a tank really so unlikely? Suppose you simply put armor on one or two of the steam autos, plus an artillery gun up front. Ship it via canal to nearly where Hanth is. There probably isn't any Dohlarian weapon that can destroy it, and the Dohlarian defensive fortifications are not designed to trap it. Send it in front "straight down the middle" to knock out much of the existing fortifications/artillery, then follow with your infantry to at least take the front-line trenches, if not split the Dohlarian army in two. Note that this only works once, so you can't use it against RW.
At present, yes, due to the limitations of steam power. You have a real challenge in getting a steam engine small enough with Safehold tech, and what fuels it?

In the 1850's on Earth, for example, James Cowan proposed a steam powered vehicle with rotating scythes to mow down infantry. Lord Palmerston firmly vetoed the idea in Britain. Kaiser Wilhelm had an idea for something much more grandiose, that would mount more guns than some of his warships. It didn't happen either.

In 1885, Gottfried Daimler came up with a practical internal combustion engine running on petrol vaporized in a carburetor, which made possible engines that could be used to power armored vehicles.

Charis is working on developing a petro-chemical industry, and Master Howsman can probably work to the required tolerances to make the engines, but I don't see either happening in a near term time frame. Given the state Mother Church and the Jihad are in, I suspect the conflict will be settled one way or the other well before the IC engines and the petrol to fuel them become available.
_______
Dennis
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Re: ATST snippet #5
Post by n7axw   » Sat Sep 03, 2016 10:26 pm

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DMcCunney wrote:
wkernochan wrote:(2) Is a tank really so unlikely? Suppose you simply put armor on one or two of the steam autos, plus an artillery gun up front. Ship it via canal to nearly where Hanth is. There probably isn't any Dohlarian weapon that can destroy it, and the Dohlarian defensive fortifications are not designed to trap it. Send it in front "straight down the middle" to knock out much of the existing fortifications/artillery, then follow with your infantry to at least take the front-line trenches, if not split the Dohlarian army in two. Note that this only works once, so you can't use it against RW.
At present, yes, due to the limitations of steam power. You have a real challenge in getting a steam engine small enough with Safehold tech, and what fuels it?

In the 1850's on Earth, for example, James Cowan proposed a steam powered vehicle with rotating scythes to mow down infantry. Lord Palmerston firmly vetoed the idea in Britain. Kaiser Wilhelm had an idea for something much more grandiose, that would mount more guns than some of his warships. It didn't happen either.

In 1885, Gottfried Daimler came up with a practical internal combustion engine running on petrol vaporized in a carburetor, which made possible engines that could be used to power armored vehicles.

Charis is working on developing a petro-chemical industry, and Master Howsman can probably work to the required tolerances to make the engines, but I don't see either happening in a near term time frame. Given the state Mother Church and the Jihad are in, I suspect the conflict will be settled one way or the other well before the IC engines and the petrol to fuel them become available.
_______
Dennis


They probably have within their reach the ability to build a steam powered land vehicle with the engine sized down to fit a tank sized vehicle or perhaps a bit bigger. It would need a gas powered flame to heat the steam. I am thinking of the transports Sharona has in the Multiverse which would probably be within Charis' reach.

If they go to ICE, it will have to be diesel if it is to be done prior to getting rid of the proscriptions, or for that matter dealing with the OBS.

I agree it's not going to be something for this war.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: ATST snippet #5
Post by phillies   » Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:35 am

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runsforcelery wrote:
wkernochan wrote:OK, I can't resist more clueless thoughts.


(2) Is a tank really so unlikely? Suppose you simply put armor on one or two of the steam autos, plus an artillery gun up front. Ship it via canal to nearly where Hanth is. There probably isn't any Dohlarian weapon that can destroy it, and the Dohlarian defensive fortifications are not designed to trap it. Send it in front "straight down the middle" to knock out much of the existing fortifications/artillery, then follow with your infantry to at least take the front-line trenches, if not split the Dohlarian army in two. Note that this only works once, so you can't use it against RW.



What "steam autos" would that be? [he asked innocently] :roll:


Ummh, there were these gadgets in use near the Delthak works to pull carts along tracks, weren't there? The ones that you cleverly gave the name we would not expect? Of course, it would have to occur to someone that just as you can bolt armor on a barge, you can bolt it on an "automobile".
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Re: ATST snippet #5
Post by Peter2   » Mon Sep 05, 2016 5:57 am

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PeterZ wrote:[snip]

If that won't work helium may have to suffice. Not sure if producing helium will be more difficult than using hydrogen. Finding out will be real interesting. I look forward to it.


I don't think that's going to happen on any useful timescale.

Currently, the only ways of "producing" helium are by nuclear fusion and by radioactive decay – alpha particles are stripped helium nuclei – both of which are a bit beyond Safehold technology at present. It has to be found and isolated, and judging by Earth's technology, the best place to look would be in places where natural gas vents from within the planet. Even if that were done, I suspect that isolating it in sufficient quantity would stretch Edwyrd Howsmyn's abilities more than a bit! :o :o
.
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Re: ATST snippet #5
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:57 am

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Peter2 wrote:
PeterZ wrote:[snip]

If that won't work helium may have to suffice. Not sure if producing helium will be more difficult than using hydrogen. Finding out will be real interesting. I look forward to it.


I don't think that's going to happen on any useful timescale.

Currently, the only ways of "producing" helium are by nuclear fusion and by radioactive decay – alpha particles are stripped helium nuclei – both of which are a bit beyond Safehold technology at present. It has to be found and isolated, and judging by Earth's technology, the best place to look would be in places where natural gas vents from within the planet. Even if that were done, I suspect that isolating it in sufficient quantity would stretch Edwyrd Howsmyn's abilities more than a bit! :o :o
.

In the thirties, the primary source of Helium was gas wells in Texas, and the US wouldn't sell to Germany, so the Hindenberg was forced to use Hydrogen, and hence its destruction at Lakehurst.

I don't know how the Helium was separated out, but it may have been a simple mechanical process.
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Re: ATST snippet #5
Post by runsforcelery   » Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:09 am

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fallsfromtrees wrote:
Peter2 wrote:
I don't think that's going to happen on any useful timescale.

Currently, the only ways of "producing" helium are by nuclear fusion and by radioactive decay – alpha particles are stripped helium nuclei – both of which are a bit beyond Safehold technology at present. It has to be found and isolated, and judging by Earth's technology, the best place to look would be in places where natural gas vents from within the planet. Even if that were done, I suspect that isolating it in sufficient quantity would stretch Edwyrd Howsmyn's abilities more than a bit! :o :o
.

In the thirties, the primary source of Helium was gas wells in Texas, and the US wouldn't sell to Germany, so the Hindenberg was forced to use Hydrogen, and hence its destruction at Lakehurst.

I don't know how the Helium was separated out, but it may have been a simple mechanical process.



From the Jefferson Lab:

Helium, the second most abundant element in the universe, was discovered on the sun before it was found on the earth. Pierre-Jules-César Janssen, a French astronomer, noticed a yellow line in the sun's spectrum while studying a total solar eclipse in 1868. Sir Norman Lockyer, an English astronomer, realized that this line, with a wavelength of 587.49 nanometers, could not be produced by any element known at the time. It was hypothesized that a new element on the sun was responsible for this mysterious yellow emission. This unknown element was named helium by Lockyer.

The hunt to find helium on earth ended in 1895. Sir William Ramsay, a Scottish chemist, conducted an experiment with a mineral containing uranium called clevite. He exposed the clevite to mineral acids and collected the gases that were produced. He then sent a sample of these gases to two scientists, Lockyer and Sir William Crookes, who were able to identify the helium within it. Two Swedish chemists, Nils Langlet and Per Theodor Cleve, independently found helium in clevite at about the same time as Ramsay.

[Note: The helium was produced when he used sulfuric acid. RFC]

Helium makes up about 0.0005% of the earth's atmosphere. This trace amount of helium is not gravitationally bound to the earth and is constantly lost to space. The earth's atmospheric helium is replaced by the decay of radioactive elements in the earth's crust. Alpha decay, one type of radioactive decay, produces particles called alpha particles. An alpha particle can become a helium atom once it captures two electrons from its surroundings. This newly formed helium can eventually work its way to the atmosphere through cracks in the crust.

Helium is commercially recovered from natural gas deposits, mostly from Texas, Oklahoma and Kansas. Helium gas is used to inflate blimps, scientific balloons and party balloons. It is used as an inert shield for arc welding, to pressurize the fuel tanks of liquid fueled rockets and in supersonic windtunnels. Helium is combined with oxygen to create a nitrogen free atmosphere for deep sea divers so that they will not suffer from a condition known as nitrogen narcosis. Liquid helium is an important cryogenic material and is used to study superconductivity and to create superconductive magnets. The Department of Energy's Jefferson Lab uses large amounts of liquid helium to operate its superconductive electron accelerator.

_________________________________________

And I really couldn't possibly say how abundant helium might be on Safeway . . . . [tum-te-tum-te-tum] :twisted:


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: ATST snippet #5
Post by Captain Igloo   » Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:31 am

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fallsfromtrees wrote:In the thirties, the primary source of Helium was gas wells in Texas, and the US wouldn't sell to Germany, so the Hindenberg was forced to use Hydrogen, and hence its destruction at Lakehurst.

I don't know how the Helium was separated out, but it may have been a simple mechanical process.


Helium is extracted from natural gas by a process of liquifying the other gases, which liquify at temperatures higher than that of helium, and recovering the helium in gaseous form (cryogenic process). Basically, this process consisted of compressing and cooling the natural gas as it came in from the pipeline. Hydrocarbons, oxygen, and nitrogen condense under the alternate compression and refrigeration, and can be removed. Carbon dioxide is removed when limewater is sprayed into the incoming gas. The helium that remains as a gas is not affected by the compression and refrigeration that liquifies the other gases, and can be recovered and stored in high-pressure cylinders.

First, the process required removal of carbon dioxide (C02) that made up about 0.7 percent of the intake gas in the CO2 removal units. Carbon dioxide, if not removed, solidified during the super cooling process and plugged the apparatus at less than 600 pounds of pressure per square inch (psi), so the feed gas was scrubbed with a 7 percent solution of caustic soda in the extended system of steel tubing. Water vapor and some hydrocarbons accumulated in this process, but they were removed in the first section of the heat interchangers, also known as heat exchangers, where the gas was then fed.

The remaining gas was sent through the cryogenic process to liquefy all ofthe gases except helium (and traces of nitrogen and neon) to reach 98.2 percent purity. Helium will not liquefy until about minus 452° F, only seven degrees above absolute zero at about minus 459° F. Nitrogen liquefies at about minus 312° F; however, at this early juncture some traces of nitrogen remained in the helium processing technology. Before liquefying the nitrogen, the raw gas entering the plant was run countercurrent and then cooled by residual gas leaving the system after the helium had been removed. Hydrocarbons and most of the nitrogen were removed in this process of liquefaction. These residue gases then returned to the heat interchangers and were vaporized at room temperature, and then passed out of the plant as residue gas, which was sent by pipeline to other locations as fuel. At this stage, the remaining helium-nitrogen mixture (with traces of neon) was "crude helium," or a gas mixture that contained about 50 percent helium. The nitrogen from the initial liquefying process went to the nitrogen interchangers to be used in the cryogenic helium purifying process.

After the first cooling stage, the crude helium was compressed and then sent through a second series of heat exchangers. The crude helium then went to the purifier, or a container, which was surrounded by liquid nitrogen, liquefied by the aid of expander engines in an auxiliary system. In this purification process container, the temperature dropped to approximately minus 312° F under about 2,500 psi. Virtually all of the remaining nitrogen in the crude helium was liquefied and siphoned off, some of which was recovered to be used again to super cool the incoming crude helium. At about 98 percent purity, the processed helium was the highest grade of helium produced in quantity prior to World War II. It was then warmed to atmospheric temperature through interchangers and sent to railroad tank cars and small steel cylinders for transportation.
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Re: ATST snippet #5
Post by EdThomas   » Mon Sep 05, 2016 12:30 pm

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runsforcelery wrote: Helium gas is used to inflate blimps, scientific balloons and party balloons. It is used as an inert shield for arc welding, to pressurize the fuel tanks of liquid fueled rockets and in supersonic windtunnels. Helium is combined with oxygen to create a nitrogen free atmosphere for deep sea divers so that they will not suffer from a condition known as nitrogen narcosis. Liquid helium is an important cryogenic material and is used to study superconductivity and to create superconductive magnets. The Department of Energy's Jefferson Lab uses large amounts of liquid helium to operate its superconductive electron accelerator.

It's also used to make those filling toy store balloons sound like Donald Duck! ;)
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Re: ATST snippet #5
Post by WeberFan   » Mon Sep 05, 2016 1:08 pm

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fallsfromtrees wrote:In the thirties, the primary source of Helium was gas wells in Texas, and the US wouldn't sell to Germany, so the Hindenberg was forced to use Hydrogen, and hence its destruction at Lakehurst.

I don't know how the Helium was separated out, but it may have been a simple mechanical process.

Helium was separated using cryogenic distillation. It's a multi-step, somewhat complex process that selectively removes other materials (water, methane, and others) and results in helium that's about 99.99% pure.

Even today, the national Helium Reserve is located in Texas. You've heard of the Strategic Petroleum Reserve (hundreds of millions of barrels of crude oil stored in salt domes in east Texas)? The same is true for the National Helium Reserve. The reserve is located just northwest of Amarillo, TX and contains about 1 billion cubic meters of helium-rich gas.
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