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SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinions

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinio
Post by Rincewind   » Sat Sep 03, 2016 11:56 am

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fallsfromtrees wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:
That is the current game plan. Exactly how I'll find a title with "Honor" that works is a bit more problematic. :roll:
Using her first name somewhere in every other book seemed like such a good idea . . . when I thought there'd be only six or seven of them. :lol:

Call it what you will. There is no hard and fast rule that a mainline boot has to have Honor in the title. Let's see:
On Basilisk Station
A Short Victorious War
Flag In Exile
In Enemy Hands
Ashes of Victory
At All Costs
A Rising Thunder

That's seven out of 13 - without any Honor at all.


Actually, that is not a good example because the pattern is every alternate title has Honor in it so this one is due to have Honor in it.
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Re: SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinio
Post by munroburton   » Sat Sep 03, 2016 12:38 pm

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fallsfromtrees wrote:Call it what you will. There is no hard and fast rule that a mainline boot has to have Honor in the title. Let's see:
On Basilisk Station
A Short Victorious War
Flag In Exile
In Enemy Hands
Ashes of Victory
At All Costs
A Rising Thunder

That's seven out of 13 - without any Honor at all.



1 On Basilisk Station
2 The Honor of the Queen
3 The Short Victorious War
4 Field of Dishonor
5 Flag in Exile
6 Honor Among Enemies
7 In Enemy Hands
8 Echoes of Honor
9 Ashes of Victory
10 War of Honor
11 At All Costs
12 Mission of Honor
13 A Rising Thunder

I trust that makes the pattern easier to detect. ;)

SoV clearly isn't a mainline Honor novel, whatever Wiki, Amazon, etc.. says. It belongs with the rest of the Shadow books.
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Re: SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinio
Post by George J. Smith   » Sat Sep 03, 2016 12:52 pm

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In my personal HH timeline spreadsheet I have HH-14 still blank as I'm waiting for the follow on to the 13th book, (ART).

I have labelled SoV as Shadow-04.
.
T&R
GJS

A man should live forever, or die in the attempt
Spider Robinson Callahan's Crosstime Saloon (1977) A voice is heard in Ramah
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Re: SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinio
Post by cthia   » Sat Sep 03, 2016 12:53 pm

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My apology that lots made it past the cutting room floor this time. There's only ME, MYSELF and I, and one of us is on vacation.

David Weber is one of the best literary drivers of all time. That's written in MY book. And because of it, he has to endure screaming from backseat drivers. Who won't just sit back and enjoy the ride. Most of the complaints are as backseat drivers do -- "Are we there yet? Are we there yet?" And I understand that, as well as I'm sure he does. But you don't want to incur a driving infraction by speeding. Trips take time. And in your complaining you miss the scenery along the way. As I've already said, I highly suspect that this book lays important highway for the completely exhilarating trip ahead.

I have a few concerns myself, like there being so long between printings that I forget what's going on. And after waiting so long to survive cliffhangers, they are not resolved. But perhaps, in the author's eye, he shall not serve rope before its time. I truly suspect that lots of groundwork had to be paved on this highway, before the final trip. Or we'd get lost and BE lost. There's only one more book.

I think the MAIN problem, other than many wanting to take over the writing of the finale, is that many of us were misled by Baen's blurb of this book. Yet Baen cannot be blamed either because they simply gave us what they had. I do understand the bitter disappointment when you think you're about to drink sweet tea, taste buds all tingling, and you get unsweetened. Everyone thought that this book was going to cover certain plots and advance the timeline. But to be honest folk, we all are even more culpable for that. And this forum, as much as I love it, allowed us to work ourselves into a feeding frenzy - speculation addicts -- not knowing when to "pump the brakes" on this trip to the climax.

When I first read this, and even before I read David's response to it, I was part way into my own. He beat me to it. But I called this one pitch myself, which follows...
trevin wrote:I just got done reading 11+ pages of comments. Many by RFC. First, thank you for that.

Second. I think I will like this book more the second time I read it. The first time I kept waiting for the story to start. Having said that the second half of this book was great fun even though I was still waiting for the timeline to advance.

If I had gone into this book with the knowledge that it ended in October 1922 about a day after Cauldron and did not advance most of the stories from ART, SoF and Cauldron I believe I would have loved the whole thing right from the beginning. As it was my expectation that "surely we will get up to the present by the NEXT chapter" impeded my enjoyment for the first half of the book.

In other words, better description going in from the Baen writing staff would have made a huge difference here. At least to me.


My WIP...
I wonder if most of that is due to Baen giving exactly what they had at the time. Because the storyline is, by nature, in a constant flux by the author himself. How can he guarantee what he hasn't written yet? And still remain true to the story as it develops in his head, instead of elsewhere and else-factors. The ball can still be dropped even in the face of such advanced technology, because something wasn't checked, rechecked then verified.

But look at the bright side. We could all be living in the days of the Remington "X" and the "Multilith 1250" press along with the copy/pasting, plate making, deadline sweating publishing method of yesteryear. Everything upgrades in technology in relation to everything else. The current methods of publishing has become advanced enough to support the new technologies of an internet with a forum. Can you imagine if RFC were writing this series in the days of a Remington typewriter YET SOMEHOW there still be "US folk" screaming and bearing the ends of pitchforks heated in the fire, and demanding the next book, let alone the current one?! :lol: Being a writer under those circumstances would probably get you threatened! At the very least. I'd be hard pressed, as a writer, to show up at a book signing then.

So, let's count our own blessings, or look at the bright side, and just be thankful that RFC isn't working from a Remington X. But also that if he were, then it at least be a Remington X.

Sometimes we just don't know how good life is because we take it for granted. We take it for granted because it is so good. We don't see what's right before our eyes, because it is so good. Because it is so good, we take it for granted. So we miss it. Oftentimes humans are worst than dogs chasing their own tail.

We cry over spilled milk when there's a whole darn gallon in the refrigerator.

- My mom



Some of these posts are down right appalling. I always figured I was raised rather differently than most people. And it shows in these threads. I've had my share of appalling confrontations here in the forum myself and it always leaves me astonished but quite humble in knowing that I was raised properly.

One of my sisters recognized an error in my attitude very early on, when I was in college. She said to me...

"Brother, you can not go around in life judging other people by how well you were raised. They didn't have the benefit of having our parents."

I never forgot that.

I've had many friends of mine permanently frightened away from this forum because of people with a lack of — frankly, I don't know what the hell is lacking. It's far greater than just manners, but something quite salient is. Reminds me of one of my "Self-Proclaimed One Liners."
If you're lacking in ethics you're lacking four score.
If you're lacking in morality you're lacking at the core. —Cthia


Many of my friends are from other cultures. Romania, Bulgaria, Russia, Ireland, etc., and total lack of manners shown by many Americans is totally shocking to them. It is the sense of American entitlement and a lack of upbringing (My parents always said that an offspring's poor behavior will reflect on the parent — even when it shouldn't.) Yes, I know I've "trotted" this out before. Yet, reason to trot it out again always resurfaces.

At any rate, can you imagine the discussions emanating from my foreign friends now? "'Cthia' they don't even respect the author!"

Quite frankly, I could not disagree. One of my Romanian friends said "An author writes professionally for a living and should expect criticism. And most get it! But the criticism that makes it mainstream is usually accomplished by professional critics. Who know how to scathe without crossing the line.

One particular post truly upset my wife. A friend from Ireland (A Weber fan) is visiting with my wife and I. Having overheard part of Lena and my conversation, my wife queried us. When I told her about a poster posting that he felt he'd been cheated by the book, her face contorted. I thought it something Lena and I said...

"Wait a sec."

My wife storms off ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... Upon returning...

"Tell him, that is being cheated!"

She had gone into the study to retrieve one of her odd books and came and tossed it into my lap. I opened the particularly heavy book and...

"There's nothing printed on any of the pages!"

"That's my bloody point honey. That is being cheated."

It was one of her textbooks, "Business Economics" which was purchased on a Friday from the school bookstore which closes for the weekend and the professor stated a pop quiz the following Monday!

"If something was written between the covers of Weber's book then no one was bloody cheated! Misled by his own expectations of what he thinks the author should write, perhaps. But then, who is the author? If we could write. We'd write."


I would never go on an author's own forum and post some of the things I've read. If you're disappointed in the book — for whatever reasons, it is your right to be. Emotions cannot be controlled. But they should be tamed!

What we, as readers, are forgetting is that David Weber is human. AND, he makes his living by delivering unto us HIS visions of a world HE created. Yet, this is his livelihood. Scathing, appalling, distasteful comments like so could damage his sales. I can't imagine that anyone on the forums would want to do that and still consider themselves a fan. It could lead to him shutting down the forums or much worse, discontinuing writing!

"If I were the author. I'd shut down the bloody forums. I wouldn't supply the platform for people to bash ME with."

That's my wife talking. And knowing her, she'd do it too. Sure hope David doesn't feel that way, but I'd sure understand it if he did. He can pull a Dafty Duckk and Duckk ALL of the threads! Why can't we all just sit back and enjoy the ride? Trust the driver. You can't see the road ahead, so at least admire the view out the window.

Prior to Shadow of Victory, there were just two remaining books. Seriously folk, can we really expect David Weber to be able to wrap everything that "we all" want gift wrapped in just two books if some ground work isn't paved first? There are many many ways that any of the books could have been written. We've come to know those possibilities as alternate endings. Yet there is only ONE way that it will be written. And it ain't by any of US! Not that ANY of us would want it to be any other way. Even if that other writer is a professional themselves. I have other favorite authors. And they write quite well what they write. Even if they were fans of Weber and drank his every word, would I want David to turn over the helm to either of them? Hell no! Much less either one of US in the forums.

What worries me the most now, reminds me of something in physics. "The act of observing, alters the reality." Despite David assuring us that his true vision, at the end of the day, won't be altered by our copper-plated "Ransomness," the fear that certain inciteful observations will do just that hangs in the air over "my" head. At the end of the day and the series, being cheated would be if WE as readers -- by accident, by nature or by design -- altered what the author himself had in mind. (Even if it means losing Honor -- a prospect that I whine about.)

Trust his vision. After all, it is his vision.

.
Last edited by cthia on Sat Sep 03, 2016 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinio
Post by cthia   » Sat Sep 03, 2016 12:56 pm

cthia
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dscott8 wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:That is the current game plan. Exactly how I'll find a title with "Honor" that works is a bit more problematic. :roll:
Using her first name somewhere in every other book seemed like such a good idea . . . when I thought there'd be only six or seven of them. :lol:


Shadow of Honor?

Call it what you will, only PLEASE include a knock-down, drag-out fistfight between Honor and Anisimovna. I really want to see that beyotch get her ass kicked. And then Honor can turn her over to Torch for trial.

I'll second that motion!

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinio
Post by cthia   » Sat Sep 03, 2016 1:17 pm

cthia
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And quite frankly, several posters downright owe him an apology!

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinio
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Sat Sep 03, 2016 1:23 pm

fallsfromtrees
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Posts: 1960
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Location: Mesa, Arizona

munroburton wrote:
fallsfromtrees wrote:Call it what you will. There is no hard and fast rule that a mainline boot has to have Honor in the title. Let's see:
On Basilisk Station
A Short Victorious War
Flag In Exile
In Enemy Hands
Ashes of Victory
At All Costs
A Rising Thunder

That's seven out of 13 - without any Honor at all.



1 On Basilisk Station
2 The Honor of the Queen
3 The Short Victorious War
4 Field of Dishonor
5 Flag in Exile
6 Honor Among Enemies
7 In Enemy Hands
8 Echoes of Honor
9 Ashes of Victory
10 War of Honor
11 At All Costs
12 Mission of Honor
13 A Rising Thunder

I trust that makes the pattern easier to detect. ;)


I'm going to quote Emerson here
" A foolish regard for consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds". Let him call it what he will, just call it that quickly (The posited April 2018 date seems awfully far away).
========================

The only problem with quotes on the internet is that you can't authenticate them -- Abraham Lincoln
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Re: SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinio
Post by JohnRoth   » Sat Sep 03, 2016 1:43 pm

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fallsfromtrees wrote:Call it what you will. There is no hard and fast rule that a mainline boot has to have Honor in the title. Let's see:
On Basilisk Station
A Short Victorious War
Flag In Exile
In Enemy Hands
Ashes of Victory
At All Costs
A Rising Thunder

That's seven out of 13 - without any Honor at all.

munroburton wrote:
1 On Basilisk Station
2 The Honor of the Queen
3 The Short Victorious War
4 Field of Dishonor
5 Flag in Exile
6 Honor Among Enemies
7 In Enemy Hands
8 Echoes of Honor
9 Ashes of Victory
10 War of Honor
11 At All Costs
12 Mission of Honor
13 A Rising Thunder

I trust that makes the pattern easier to detect. ;)



fallsfromtrees wrote:I'm going to quote Emerson here
" A foolish regard for consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds". Let him call it what he will, just call it that quickly (The posited April 2018 date seems awfully far away).


Actually, the quote is: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. ..." It goes on for a ways. http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/353571- ... nds-adored

Well, here's my candidate for a title: "On Her Death Ride".
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Re: SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinio
Post by Brigade XO   » Sat Sep 03, 2016 1:56 pm

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I won't be able to even consider getting the book till sometime in October, too much else going on. This thread has been brutal.
I do want to see what happens. I just have to wait. I like twist and turns that make sense, even if they don't make sense in the initial contetx presented.
Backstory. Actual closure of plot lines instead of just leaving them floating.
Good stuff
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Re: SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinio
Post by Fiannawolf   » Sat Sep 03, 2016 1:57 pm

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My brain understands the need to set up the board properly but my heart wants to see the "Alliance of Former enemies turned even more Awesome" kick baddies in the teeth. So I can understand the frustration. On the other hand, I know ill be just as sad when the series truly ends too.

I'm doing my best to keep my heart in check since I've been in for the long haul since the 90s....tally ho and all that. Soon we shall see the epic endgame. Soon.

Almost done re-reading OBS....they were so innocent then. Awww...its Alistair. Help.

Plus its fun to see just how much everyone changed but still retained the parts that made me enjoy reading.
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