SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinions

I haven't read the entire thread, but I have read the entire earc. Read further at your peril if you haven't read it all yet.

SPOILERS!!!!


Last chance...here we go!!




My thoughts on the book are pretty much the following:

For the 1st third of the book, I was holding up a "Get on with it!" sign. All these back stories to places they already had their revolutions and were stabilizing seems superfluous.

I enjoyed the scenes where Terekhov came face to face with the Havenite relief column, the source of his personal demons and, entirely justified, prejudice. I particularly like the scene where Tourville and Terekhov were able to bridge that gap. The scene with his wife doing much the same thing was also gratifying and showed a bright possible future for overcoming the animosity of the past. Not just the militaries of these nations, but their people as well.

I do kinda wish the book would have spent less time rehashing old news and moved the story line along. As it was, the story hasnt moved along at all except positively identifying the "unknown" fleet at Mesa that saved General Palane was in fact an Alliance fleet.
I'm kinda irked that this book ultimately went nowhere except to sync the timelines of the various branches. Couldn't that have been done within the first couple chapters and the other 70 or so could have actually propelled the story further?

Can we please get positive traction on the story going forward? As it is, this book just seemed like a needless book designed to make quick cash and take advantage of readers. I feel really let down by this book, however well written it is.

PeterZ wrote:

roseandheather wrote:
HE BETTER NOT. He killed off Javier, he still owes me so big, and if I'm not gonna get Augustus/Estelle or Michael/Abigail, I at least want this one!!

Abigail and Indy have been written in the stars since Indy was introduced. See how Fate brings them together in this story?

Err... what? Am I missing a short story or something? I went back through the book and can't find any mention of Indy and Abigail meeting at all. That whole story line ended with Zavala showing up on Seraphim.

The events on Seraphim/Cherubim were the only revolution story that somewhat puzzled me. Indy and Kenzy seemed smart, earnest, and very young in the last book and the early part of this one... strictly small potatoes, amateur hour when it came to planetary resistance movements. Then they managed a full-out assault on both of the other armed political groups after the central government got taken out by an unknown third party, and within a few pages were running the planet. Seemed a bit thin compared to the other resistance story lines.

But anyway, where is the speculation about Abigail and Indy coming from?

I haven't read any of this thread but its the right place for this post.

Color me frustrated. I hit Gold Peak's planning session in Chapter 65 and don't want to stop reading but I have arrived at the office and have to work!

ARGH!

NervousEnergy wrote:

PeterZ wrote:
Abigail and Indy have been written in the stars since Indy was introduced. See how Fate brings them together in this story?

Err... what? Am I missing a short story or something? I went back through the book and can't find any mention of Indy and Abigail meeting at all. That whole story line ended with Zavala showing up on Seraphim.

The events on Seraphim/Cherubim were the only revolution story that somewhat puzzled me. Indy and Kenzy seemed smart, earnest, and very young in the last book and the early part of this one... strictly small potatoes, amateur hour when it came to planetary resistance movements. Then they managed a full-out assault on both of the other armed political groups after the central government got taken out by an unknown third party, and within a few pages were running the planet. Seemed a bit thin compared to the other resistance story lines.

But anyway, where is the speculation about Abigail and Indy coming from?

The Seraphim rebellion depended on freeing the political prisoners. Those were the people who could and did provide an initial core of seasoned leadership. Indy and Kenzie had the core tactical unit that acted as foundation for everything else. That core leadership allowed the police and other more established elements to view the movement as something more than a tight-knit tactical group. Between that and these two were the ones that got the initial weapons and had the "contact" with Manticore, they retained a leadership role.

Even so, the broader plot seemed more a device to introduce Indy and Kenzie than to introduce yet another system into the political mix. Having Firebrand captured by them was a nice touch, but that could have happened anywhere else, really.

Because all this is true, I ask why introduce them at all? My conclusion is that Indy and Abigail are likely to find themselves working together. Recall that Captain Zavala is the senior Captain for Naomi's and Abby's division. That's where the speculation is coming from and a broader analysis of possible characters for Abby to develop a relationship with.

PeterZ wrote:

NervousEnergy wrote:Err... what? Am I missing a short story or something? I went back through the book and can't find any mention of Indy and Abigail meeting at all. That whole story line ended with Zavala showing up on Seraphim.

The events on Seraphim/Cherubim were the only revolution story that somewhat puzzled me. Indy and Kenzy seemed smart, earnest, and very young in the last book and the early part of this one... strictly small potatoes, amateur hour when it came to planetary resistance movements. Then they managed a full-out assault on both of the other armed political groups after the central government got taken out by an unknown third party, and within a few pages were running the planet. Seemed a bit thin compared to the other resistance story lines.

But anyway, where is the speculation about Abigail and Indy coming from?

The Seraphim rebellion depended on freeing the political prisoners. Those were the people who could and did provide an initial core of seasoned leadership. Indy and Kenzie had the core tactical unit that acted as foundation for everything else. That core leadership allowed the police and other more established elements to view the movement as something more than a tight-knit tactical group. Between that and these two were the ones that got the initial weapons and had the "contact" with Manticore, they retained a leadership role.

Even so, the broader plot seemed more a device to introduce Indy and Kenzie than to introduce yet another system into the political mix. Having Firebrand captured by them was a nice touch, but that could have happened anywhere else, really.

Because all this is true, I ask why introduce them at all? My conclusion is that Indy and Abigail are likely to find themselves working together. Recall that Captain Zavala is the senior Captain for Naomi's and Abby's division. That's where the speculation is coming from and a broader analysis of possible characters for Abby to develop a relationship with.

Not saying that might not be a factor ( ) but if you'll notice the dedication to ART you may recognize some names you know. Since I wrote that dedication, we've lost Indy to cancer when he was not yet 22 years old, but he got to see SOF . . . and Kenzie is reading the books now.

Not every event --- or character --- in one of my books is there solely to advance the story line.

And, BTW, the real Indy faced up to his cancer from the time he was 14 years old. Any courage my Indy shows is me simply trying to present a pale reflection of his Real World courage.

Like I said in the ART dedication, God Bless.

I haven't read anything in the e-ARC besides the story. I did not recall the ART dedication. I should have considering Indy is my farotite new Shadow character. It makes sense that he seems more alive to me than the other's you have introduced.

As an aside you, Mr. Webber, do not introduce characters who do not help progress the story. They may also fill other roles, but the more real they seem to we, the often obtuse readers, the greater those characters will move the story along.

Obviously , Indy is alive and remarkably well in the Honorverse.

runsforcelery wrote:

PeterZ wrote:
The Seraphim rebellion depended on freeing the political prisoners. Those were the people who could and did provide an initial core of seasoned leadership. Indy and Kenzie had the core tactical unit that acted as foundation for everything else. That core leadership allowed the police and other more established elements to view the movement as something more than a tight-knit tactical group. Between that and these two were the ones that got the initial weapons and had the "contact" with Manticore, they retained a leadership role.

Even so, the broader plot seemed more a device to introduce Indy and Kenzie than to introduce yet another system into the political mix. Having Firebrand captured by them was a nice touch, but that could have happened anywhere else, really.

Because all this is true, I ask why introduce them at all? My conclusion is that Indy and Abigail are likely to find themselves working together. Recall that Captain Zavala is the senior Captain for Naomi's and Abby's division. That's where the speculation is coming from and a broader analysis of possible characters for Abby to develop a relationship with.

Not saying that might not be a factor ( ) but if you'll notice the dedication to ART you may recognize some names you know. Since I wrote that dedication, we've lost Indy to cancer when he was not yet 22 years old, but he got to see SOF . . . and Kenzie is reading the books now.

Not every event --- or character --- in one of my books is there solely to advance the story line.

And, BTW, the real Indy faced up to his cancer from the time he was 14 years old. Any courage my Indy shows is me simply trying to present a pale reflection of his Real World courage.

Like I said in the ART dedication, God Bless.

PeterZ wrote:I haven't read anything in the e-ARC besides the story. I did not recall the ART dedication. I should have considering Indy is my farotite new Shadow character. It makes sense that he seems more alive to me than the other's you have introduced.

As an aside you, Mr. Webber, do not introduce characters who do not help progress the story. They may also fill other roles, but the more real they seem to we, the often obtuse readers, the greater those characters will move the story along.

Obviously , Indy is alive and remarkably well in the Honorverse.

1) I certainly hope you genuinely forgot to include please in your statement.

2) It is up to the authors of stories to include or otherwise any character(s) they wish.

George J. Smith wrote:

PeterZ wrote:I haven't read anything in the e-ARC besides the story. I did not recall the ART dedication. I should have considering Indy is my farotite new Shadow character. It makes sense that he seems more alive to me than the other's you have introduced.

As an aside you, Mr. Webber, do not introduce characters who do not help progress the story. They may also fill other roles, but the more real they seem to we, the often obtuse readers, the greater those characters will move the story along.

Obviously , Indy is alive and remarkably well in the Honorverse.

1) I certainly hope you genuinely forgot to include please in your statement.

2) It is up to the authors of stories to include or otherwise any character(s) they wish.

I think he meant it as an observation --- and a very kind one --- not a command, George!

ChronicRder wrote:I haven't read the entire thread, but I have read the entire earc. Read further at your peril if you haven't read it all yet.

SPOILERS!!!!


Last chance...here we go!!




My thoughts on the book are pretty much the following:

For the 1st third of the book, I was holding up a "Get on with it!" sign. All these back stories to places they already had their revolutions and were stabilizing seems superfluous.

I enjoyed the scenes where Terekhov came face to face with the Havenite relief column, the source of his personal demons and, entirely justified, prejudice. I particularly like the scene where Tourville and Terekhov were able to bridge that gap. The scene with his wife doing much the same thing was also gratifying and showed a bright possible future for overcoming the animosity of the past. Not just the militaries of these nations, but their people as well.

I do kinda wish the book would have spent less time rehashing old news and moved the story line along. As it was, the story hasnt moved along at all except positively identifying the "unknown" fleet at Mesa that saved General Palane was in fact an Alliance fleet.
I'm kinda irked that this book ultimately went nowhere except to sync the timelines of the various branches. Couldn't that have been done within the first couple chapters and the other 70 or so could have actually propelled the story further?

Can we please get positive traction on the story going forward? As it is, this book just seemed like a needless book designed to make quick cash and take advantage of readers. I feel really let down by this book, however well written it is.

At the risk of piling on and or seeming presumptuous, I don't believe this is about any kind of cash grab. I just think sometimes writers are like white water rafters while others are like trail hikers; in one scenario the river sets the pace while in the other the one wearing the hiking boots and ruck-sack does. And to put a finer point on it, some hikers pack lightly while others bring their walking sticks, Alpine hats, binoculars, notepads, thermoses (of hot chocolate) and good company to while away the hours with.

Mr. Smith, all these stories are David's to tell. The characters he includes or does not include are totally his. I certainly do not command anything. I simply state facts. David Weber tells his stories using those characters who move the plot along. Those characters may fulfill other roles in addition, but if they exist in one of his stories they will move the plot along.

George J. Smith wrote:

PeterZ wrote:I haven't read anything in the e-ARC besides the story. I did not recall the ART dedication. I should have considering Indy is my farotite new Shadow character. It makes sense that he seems more alive to me than the other's you have introduced.

As an aside you, Mr. Webber, do not introduce characters who do not help progress the story. They may also fill other roles, but the more real they seem to we, the often obtuse readers, the greater those characters will move the story along.

Obviously , Indy is alive and remarkably well in the Honorverse.

1) I certainly hope you genuinely forgot to include please in your statement.

2) It is up to the authors of stories to include or otherwise any character(s) they wish.