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SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinions

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Re: SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinio
Post by Henry Brown   » Thu Sep 01, 2016 9:55 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Henry Brown wrote:I just skimmed through all 16 pages of the thread and I didn't see a single reference to the fact the book reveals the Grand Alliance has formally declared war on the Solarian League. As far as I can remember this was not discussed at all in ART, even after Filerta's fleet was defeated. I thought this was one of biggest developments plot-wise in the book and nobody has mentioned it yet?

I'd assumed a formal state of war existed every since Fileretta crossed the Rubicon [Manticore's hyper limit]
A Rising Thunder wrote:Should you not immediately depart Manticoran territorial space, Her Majesty’s Navy and its allies will respond to that act of war with deadly force. Should you cross our hyper limit after this warning, I am instructed to inform you that Empress Elizabeth and her government will take it as incontrovertible proof that, despite its pious diplomatic protestations and posturing, the Solarian League in fact actively desires a state of war between it and Manticore. Should that be the case, we will certainly give you one.”
[...]
I repeat my original warning. If the forces under your command cross the hyper limit of this star system, you will be engaged and destroyed and a state of war will exist between the Solarian League and the Star Empire of Manticore and its allies.
I don't think ART followed up with Manticore sending a formal note to the League, nor can I recall whether that happened in Cauldron. But I had no reason to suspect Manticore was bluffing about a formal state of war existing from that moment.


See I thought Honor was bluffing about the formal state of war. Because we were privy to conversations and meetings between the heads of the alliance after the battle. They seemed to be focused on how the SL would react to Filerta's defeat diplomatically. They seemed to hope that the SL would be willing to negotiate once Filerta's fleet was beaten.

This kind of attitude is not what you would expect if they were going to go ahead and declare war. Even after Filerta's defeat, I don't remember a single scene in ART where Honor, Theisman, White Haven, Prichart, or Elizabeth discussed active offensive operations against the SL. If they were going to truly declare war, wouldn't they have gotten on with the business of actually conducting a war? They ARE rather competent at that sort of thing after all. ;)
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Re: SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinio
Post by JohnRoth   » Thu Sep 01, 2016 9:57 pm

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noblehunter wrote:I think it's worth noting that authors and publishers don't have a lot of historical practice for this kind of storytelling. Novels have been around for awhile and so has extended serial storytelling but this kind of epic, five-or-ten-plus-novel story hasn't been. So no-one knows how to do it right. The consequences of decisions that worked at the time end up derailing the series four or five books later.


OrlandoNative wrote:Mmmm... you must be fairly young, or new to the science fiction genre.

E. E "doc" Smith's Lensman series is an epic of 7 books (1948-1954). His "Skylark" series was 4 books (1946-1949 with the 4th coming out in 1966). So I'd say "epic story telling" has been around for quite a while. While none of these were 300k words each, they were still quite respectable sized books for their time. The books that eventually made up Asimov's Foundation epic (not just the Trilogy) were each good sized for their time as well.

In all fairness, however, *one* of the books in the Foundation epic *did* have some eccentricities versus the rest, but it was a prequel (in chronological story line time, not in time of writing) to the actual Trilogy, and the differences were explained away as being something that originally existed but slowly over time ceased to do so (originally stable wormholes going unstable).

So multi-novel "epic" story lines are not in any way new.


saber964 wrote:
More than that, try ERB Princess of Mars which runs 10+ books or C S Lewis Narnia 7 books or L Frank Baum OZ books


Some of these are not like the others. The thing about the Honorverse, the Game of Thrones series, the Wheel of Time and others is that the author thought of them as a single work that would be issued in multiple volumes.

The Barsoom series and the OZ series (past the first book) are simply stories with the same cast of characters in the same setting, but otherwise they're independent, just like Nancy Drew, Tom Swift, the Hardy Boys and too many others to remember that went to literally dozens of novels. And let's not forget Doc Savage, where the author of most of them, Lester Dent, reportedly had a placard on the wall in front of his desk titled "The Plot." Or Sherlock Holmes, Hercule Poiroit, Nero Wolf and a gazillion others.
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Re: SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinio
Post by npadln   » Thu Sep 01, 2016 10:16 pm

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JohnRoth wrote:

Some of these are not like the others. The thing about the Honorverse, the Game of Thrones series, the Wheel of Time and others is that the author thought of them as a single work that would be issued in multiple volumes.

The Barsoom series and the OZ series (past the first book) are simply stories with the same cast of characters in the same setting, but otherwise they're independent, just like Nancy Drew, Tom Swift, the Hardy Boys and too many others to remember that went to literally dozens of novels. And let's not forget Doc Savage, where the author of most of them, Lester Dent, reportedly had a placard on the wall in front of his desk titled "The Plot." Or Sherlock Holmes, Hercule Poiroit, Nero Wolf and a gazillion others.


Interesting that you make that distinction. I always considered the HH books from OBS to Echoes part of a serial collection and all books after that then a single story spread out over multiple volumes (what do you call that?)
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Re: SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinio
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Sep 01, 2016 10:19 pm

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Henry Brown wrote:See I thought Honor was bluffing about the formal state of war. Because we were privy to conversations and meetings between the heads of the alliance after the battle. They seemed to be focused on how the SL would react to Filerta's defeat diplomatically. They seemed to hope that the SL would be willing to negotiate once Filerta's fleet was beaten.
Interesting; I never for a second though she was bluffing. First declare war because of territorial violations; then mousetrap him inside the limit and force the fleet to surrender (hopefully without a shot being fired).

But the formal state of was a necessary prerequisite to forcing their surrender. Plus Manticore was planning to release the communications and footage of the confrontation to League newsies - so you can't exactly "bluff" about a declaration of war that you then broadcast.

The fact that nobody felt the need to elaborate on the mechanics of formally passing that declaration back to the League seemed (to me) to be reasonable as the important decision was the decision to declare war if their home system territory was violated. And that had been hashed out during all the off-screen planning sessions long before the Raging Justice forces showed up.
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Re: SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinio
Post by JohnRoth   » Thu Sep 01, 2016 10:36 pm

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npadln wrote:
JohnRoth wrote:
Some of these are not like the others. The thing about the Honorverse, the Game of Thrones series, the Wheel of Time and others is that the author thought of them as a single work that would be issued in multiple volumes.

The Barsoom series and the OZ series (past the first book) are simply stories with the same cast of characters in the same setting, but otherwise they're independent, just like Nancy Drew, Tom Swift, the Hardy Boys and too many others to remember that went to literally dozens of novels. And let's not forget Doc Savage, where the author of most of them, Lester Dent, reportedly had a placard on the wall in front of his desk titled "The Plot." Or Sherlock Holmes, Hercule Poiroit, Nero Wolf and a gazillion others.


Interesting that you make that distinction. I always considered the HH books from OBS to Echoes part of a serial collection and all books after that then a single story spread out over multiple volumes (what do you call that?)


The comparison that comes to mind is the Horatio Hornblower series. That's a fictional biography where each novel has the same main character, and we see the character developing as the novels progress. This isn't the case with, for example, Tarzan or Sherlock Holmes. The characters don't develop.

Just like the first Honorverse series, most of the Horatio Hornblower novels can be read independently. The big difference is that RFC always had the conflict with Mesa and the MAlign in mind, although as a second series after Honor died at the Battle of Manticore. There was no such intent with the Horatio Hornblower series.

The second part of the Honorverse is more of a tapestry, where there are different threads in different areas. I'm not sure what to compare it to, since I haven't read either Game of Thrones or Wheel of Time, but from what I know from comments crossing my desk, these may be fair comparisons.
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Re: SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinio
Post by Henry Brown   » Thu Sep 01, 2016 10:46 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Henry Brown wrote:See I thought Honor was bluffing about the formal state of war. Because we were privy to conversations and meetings between the heads of the alliance after the battle. They seemed to be focused on how the SL would react to Filerta's defeat diplomatically. They seemed to hope that the SL would be willing to negotiate once Filerta's fleet was beaten.
Interesting; I never for a second though she was bluffing. First declare war because of territorial violations; then mousetrap him inside the limit and force the fleet to surrender (hopefully without a shot being fired).

But the formal state of was a necessary prerequisite to forcing their surrender. Plus Manticore was planning to release the communications and footage of the confrontation to League newsies - so you can't exactly "bluff" about a declaration of war that you then broadcast.

The fact that nobody felt the need to elaborate on the mechanics of formally passing that declaration back to the League seemed (to me) to be reasonable as the important decision was the decision to declare war if their home system territory was violated. And that had been hashed out during all the off-screen planning sessions long before the Raging Justice forces showed up.


One other point. We were privy to the alliance's pre-battle planning. They did NOT want to fight a battle. Their plan was to draw Filerta across the hyper limit, then entrap him in order to force a surrender. Because they felt that his entire force surrendering would have a profound effect on the SL's diplomacy and might force them to see reason.

Remember the scene right after the battle where the various leaders of the alliance are incredulous that he opened fire under those circumstances and where Honor is beating herself up because of all the casualties she inflicted? I submit that those are not the thoughts or reactions of leaders who want to declare war. Which is another reason I thought Honor was bluffing about a state of war.
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Re: SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinio
Post by Calth   » Thu Sep 01, 2016 11:29 pm

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Honestly, some of the blowback against the criticism of the book seems over the top and rather snobby. The impression I'm getting is "How dare you question the author's decisions?" I dare because I honestly thought the book was a waste of my time and my money, and I have the right to feel that way and present it as feedback. Taking in isolation, there is nothing wrong with the book from a technical manner or the plot as a self-contained entity, but it seems horrible flawed as part of the series as a whole.

Now, when the next book comes out, it may turn out that everything was necessary and we really did need to see the exact same rebellions we saw in a previous novel rehashed and two more basically identically versions played out completely, but I doubt it. Now some fans like that the breadth of the universe was expounded upon, and that's their right, but at this point it was just too much of the same thing for me.

The timeline of the series has advanced, what, 5 months in the last 4 non-anthology books (3 if you don't count CoG)? And two years in the last 10? Compared to the start of the series when a year or more would go by in a book, it is a fair criticism that things come across as dragging even considering all the disparate plotlines to a portion of the readers, repeatedly convering the same ground makes it incredibly worse.

Now the author is free to agree or disagree with any criticism, but its a little annoying to see honest and relevant criticism dismissed out of hand. I know if this book was the second or third book in the series rather than where it is I would be done with the series. I also know I will not be purchasing further eARCs of the series until I see reviews come in.
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Re: SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinio
Post by ksandgren   » Thu Sep 01, 2016 11:42 pm

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Henry Brown wrote:See I thought Honor was bluffing about the formal state of war. Because we were privy to conversations and meetings between the heads of the alliance after the battle. They seemed to be focused on how the SL would react to Filerta's defeat diplomatically. They seemed to hope that the SL would be willing to negotiate once Filerta's fleet was beaten.

snip

Remember the scene right after the battle where the various leaders of the alliance are incredulous that he opened fire under those circumstances and where Honor is beating herself up because of all the casualties she inflicted? I submit that those are not the thoughts or reactions of leaders who want to declare war. Which is another reason I thought Honor was bluffing about a state of war.


Remember that Mike's taking of Meyers was a clearly the act of a force that had already declared war. There was no negotiation in her plan at all, and hers was an act of war in response to being at war with the league.
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Re: SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinio
Post by Sharp Claw   » Thu Sep 01, 2016 11:42 pm

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runsforcelery wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:I, personally, like this book a lot although I do rather resent the comparison to self indulging in a guitar solo at a concert. I wrote the story I thought --- and think --- needed writing within the in-universe time constraints that were set in stone. Now, i could have just waved my hands and said "The hell with the timing; it turns out they can get people back and forth five times as rapidly as the streak drive. Just take my word for it." But I don't do that. My characters have to live with the constraints of the technology and the transit times I gave them in the beginning. Obviously, a lot of people wish I'd done just that, and to those who do feel that way, all I can say is it's not going to happen.

This book is what I wanted it to be from the time I started actually writing on it. It may not be what I would have wanted --- and written --- if my characters' constraints had been different, but they weren't, and one reason the series as a whole works is because I refuse to just slide around those constraints. i did not "phone it in" (and, BTW, I resent the hell out of that particular implication), I did not decide to "indulge" myself (in fact, I worked my butt off to get it done, including 14-hour days. Trust me, you are not "indulging" yourself), and there was not a single scene in the book that I had cut from an earlier book and decided to just shove in to make up word count.

Bottom line, it is what it is, and if the disappointment is too severe for some of my readers, I'm sorry but not at all apologeitc for the story or for the quality of the storytelling.


I enjoyed the book a lot. True, like some readers I thought at first it might be a follow-on to A Rising Thunder, but quickly realized given the first chapter that it was adding flesh and substance to Shadow of Freedom. Personally, I find some of the criticisms totally uncalled for and if I were in your place, Mr. Weber, I probably would have gone a bit more ballistic. Looking forward to future novels in the series.



I figure part of the problem is that the complaints are coming from inside the onion. :lol:

These are the hard core readers, many of whom have been with the series for a long time. That gives them a somewhat privileged position with me . . . although one or two of you (and you know who you are! :evil: :lol:) are getting perilously close to terminal red shirts Sometime Real Soon Now. I think some of the people who have invested 20 years or so of interest in the series have developed a certain proprietary attitude and a strong sense of where they think the series should be going and/or where they thought it was going on the basis of past books. In that sense, this is their story as much as it’s mine, and I respect their opinions even when — as the author — I don’t share them. I do think some of the language has been a bit . . . intemperate, shall we say? But as someone else pointed out upthread, I write professionally for a living and few of my readers do. I don’t think that absolves someone of the responsibilities involved in simple courtesy and civil discourse, but I do realize that it means someone may not be aware/thinking about the way in which a given word may be perceived by its recipient. And let’s face it, written communication has always been susceptible to correspondents who use language they would never use in a face-to-face conversation with the same person because the parties to the correspondence don’t have the advantage of face-to-face feedback of facial expression, body language, or immediate response to help them realize when they’re putting a foot wrong with the other fellow.

I try to bear all of that in mind when I visit the boards. Sometimes I succeed; sometimes I fail. But my awareness of that is also why the only professional writer in my immediate family (that would be me, guys) uses more emojis than anyone else in it.

As an aside, I’m one of those people who believes the internet , email, and texting has significantly undermined the sense of courtesy in discourse. Even people who would never dream of giving offense in a personal conversation lose that since of immediate intimacy and frequently write or pose things which give enormous offense. It’s even worse when the poster/writer is anonymous, but all of us are isolated/protected by that electronic interface which prevents the other party from ripping our lungs out for some utterly egregious comment made either carelessly or with malice aforethought. And for come of us, unfortunately, the fashion in which we communicate [poorly] in electronic formats seems to spill over into our face-to-face lives, which can have unhappy consequences.

But I digress. :twisted: :lol:[/quote]

I am not criticizing the craftsmanship as you are still my current favorite author and greatly appreciate the effort and the 14 hour days to get your work to your readers ASAP after the schedule slipped. I think the disappointment, such as it is and what there is of it, is due to the fact that the last three books have all ended at basically the same point in time and we really wanted the story to move forward.

I believe you had said that you had wanted to consolidate the various story lines, like Torch and the shadow series, into the main honorverse story. You clearly believed that the plot needed to be thickened and all the back stories of the various characters filled in before you could move forward and that is the source of the self indulgent comment. I had really wanted the story to move forward and didn't think so much back filling of so many minor characters, like Damien Harahap was really
Necessary.

BTW, I resent the implication that I am some anonymous internet troll just trying to upset you and get a reaction. My real name and email are known to you and your mods and my criticisms are my real opinions and I would say the same things FTF. :evil:
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Re: SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinio
Post by n7axw   » Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:48 am

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I just read the whole thread which I found fascinating.

I won't criticize a book which I haven't read since I have decided to wait on the publication date.

Just one thing, though. I am a bit surprised that some of you expected those dead Beowulfers to be the victims of an attack by the SLN anticipated in ART. Based on a hint RFC left a while back that is floating around in the foggy reaches of my hokey memory, I have been presuming that those dead Beowulfers would be the victims of an Alighnment attack, probably with chemical or biological weapons. So go figure... :?

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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