SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinions

I think the main complaint isn't so much that this is a bad book, but that, in some readers opinion, the plot is dragging. RFC has said that this is necessary, which is fine. Unfortunately, it was to some degree marketed as a sequel to a Rising Thunder, which it really isn't. RFC hasn't really said that IIRC, but its been banded about by various people.
On one hand, its unfair to the author to blast him for this. On the other hand, there have been what, Nine Honorverse books of various stripes published since A Rising Thunder? I'm a little surprised the forum's patience has lasted this long.

Red shirt threats are empty threats. *points to signature*

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One thing that struck me was that around the middle of the book, there is a conversation in which it is mentioned that Tourville and Henke have similar command styles. Then when they met late in the book, they seemed to get along really well. I am wondering if this is foreshadowing a future personal relationship. As far as I know, both are single. Thoughts?

OK its a long time since I've posted, but the SoV has prompted me into making a comment or two>

Ok the first 2/3(ish) of Where D.H is running around lying to various people? - Has someone complained that the Honorverse is too anglosphere-centric so MWW spent too long (for this book) proving them wrong with the Polish, Czech (and what I think was Irish or Scottish) worlds.

Speaking of D.H how much time did he have after his activities in Talbott fell apart till he started running around the rest of the galaxy (surely even the streak drive has its limitations)


In all honesty probably my least favorite Honorvere novel (but still a long way above quite a bit of the content of my bookshelves

P.S. is MWW's name generator stuck on "m" or does he enjoy giving the locations similar names just to confuse us (Meyers/Maya/Mesa)?

Emo Otaku wrote:P.S. is MWW's name generator stuck on "m" or does he enjoy giving the locations similar names just to confuse us (Meyers/Maya/Mesa)?

Mannerheim, Monica, Manticore, Montana

OrlandoNative wrote:

noblehunter wrote:I think it's worth noting that authors and publishers don't have a lot of historical practice for this kind of storytelling. Novels have been around for awhile and so has extended serial storytelling but this kind of epic, five-or-ten-plus-novel story hasn't been. So no-one knows how to do it right. The consequences of decisions that worked at the time end up derailing the series four or five books later.

Mmmm... you must be fairly young, or new to the science fiction genre.

E. E "doc" Smith's Lensman series is an epic of 7 books (1948-1954). His "Skylark" series was 4 books (1946-1949 with the 4th coming out in 1966). So I'd say "epic story telling" has been around for quite a while. While none of these were 300k words each, they were still quite respectable sized books for their time. The books that eventually made up Asimov's Foundation epic (not just the Trilogy) were each good sized for their time as well.

In all fairness, however, *one* of the books in the Foundation epic *did* have some eccentricities versus the rest, but it was a prequel (in chronological story line time, not in time of writing) to the actual Trilogy, and the differences were explained away as being something that originally existed but slowly over time ceased to do so (originally stable wormholes going unstable).

So multi-novel "epic" story lines are not in any way new.

More than that, try ERB Princess of Mars which runs 10+ books or C S Lewis Narnia 7 books or L Frank Baum OZ books

runsforcelery wrote:As an aside, I’m one of those people who believes the internet , email, and texting has significantly undermined the sense of courtesy in discourse. Even people who would never dream of giving offense in a personal conversation lose that since of immediate intimacy and frequently write or pose things which give enormous offense. It’s even worse when the poster/writer is anonymous, but all of us are isolated/protected by that electronic interface which prevents the other party from ripping our lungs out for some utterly egregious comment made either carelessly or with malice aforethought. And for come of us, unfortunately, the fashion in which we communicate [poorly] in electronic formats seems to spill over into our face-to-face lives, which can have unhappy consequences.

But I digress.

Not actually a digression. Quite on point, in fact. We who visit here do not have a window into your mind, we cannot see the full breadth and depth of the story in your head. We are an example of one of the great problems with the immediacy of modern communications because it feels like we do have that window, but what we're really doing is bouncing opinions off each other, and aggregating ignorance in a fruitless attempt to produce knowledge. We are fans of the Honorverse, and we want more, and if we can't get it from you as quickly as we want it, we start manufacturing it in our heads. When you do provide the next installment, and the reality we manufactured does not materialize, we (unjustifiably) feel wronged.

Some of us can simply say, "Oh, goody! We're in for surprises!" Others handle it poorly, and in our disappointment say things that ought not to be said, things that are easier to say because we don't have to look you in the eye.

I hope that those whose comments were not proper literary criticism, but instead were attacks on your professionalism, effort and dedication, will have the grace to offer you an apology. But then, I'm an optimist, despite having had run-ins on this very board with some extremely stubborn and inconsiderate people.

I just skimmed through all 16 pages of the thread and I didn't see a single reference to the fact the book reveals the Grand Alliance has formally declared war on the Solarian League. As far as I can remember this was not discussed at all in ART, even after Filerta's fleet was defeated. I thought this was one of biggest developments plot-wise in the book and nobody has mentioned it yet?

Emo Otaku wrote:P.S. is MWW's name generator stuck on "m" or does he enjoy giving the locations similar names just to confuse us (Meyers/Maya/Mesa)?

Also, I suspect there may be some cross-series bleedover; time for a global replace of "Green Valley" with "Green Pines". But I did laugh at the apparent reference to the Clyntahn Foundation.

Henry Brown wrote:I just skimmed through all 16 pages of the thread and I didn't see a single reference to the fact the book reveals the Grand Alliance has formally declared war on the Solarian League. As far as I can remember this was not discussed at all in ART, even after Filerta's fleet was defeated. I thought this was one of biggest developments plot-wise in the book and nobody has mentioned it yet?

I'd assumed a formal state of war existed every since Fileretta crossed the Rubicon [Manticore's hyper limit]

A Rising Thunder wrote:Should you not immediately depart Manticoran territorial space, Her Majesty’s Navy and its allies will respond to that act of war with deadly force. Should you cross our hyper limit after this warning, I am instructed to inform you that Empress Elizabeth and her government will take it as incontrovertible proof that, despite its pious diplomatic protestations and posturing, the Solarian League in fact actively desires a state of war between it and Manticore. Should that be the case, we will certainly give you one.”
[...]
I repeat my original warning. If the forces under your command cross the hyper limit of this star system, you will be engaged and destroyed and a state of war will exist between the Solarian League and the Star Empire of Manticore and its allies.

I don't think ART followed up with Manticore sending a formal note to the League, nor can I recall whether that happened in Cauldron. But I had no reason to suspect Manticore was bluffing about a formal state of war existing from that moment.