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SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinions

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinio
Post by runsforcelery   » Thu Sep 01, 2016 12:37 pm

runsforcelery
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vauss wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:I, personally, like this book a lot although I do rather resent the comparison to self indulging in a guitar solo at a concert. I wrote the story I thought --- and think --- needed writing within the in-universe time constraints that were set in stone. Now, i could have just waved my hands and said "The hell with the timing; it turns out they can get people back and forth five times as rapidly as the streak drive. Just take my word for it." But I don't do that. My characters have to live with the constraints of the technology and the transit times I gave them in the beginning. Obviously, a lot of people wish I'd done just that, and to those who do feel that way, all I can say is it's not going to happen.

This book is what I wanted it to be from the time I started actually writing on it. It may not be what I would have wanted --- and written --- if my characters' constraints had been different, but they weren't, and one reason the series as a whole works is because I refuse to just slide around those constraints. i did not "phone it in" (and, BTW, I resent the hell out of that particular implication), I did not decide to "indulge" myself (in fact, I worked my butt off to get it done, including 14-hour days. Trust me, you are not "indulging" yourself), and there was not a single scene in the book that I had cut from an earlier book and decided to just shove in to make up word count.

Bottom line, it is what it is, and if the disappointment is too severe for some of my readers, I'm sorry but not at all apologeitc for the story or for the quality of the storytelling.


I enjoyed the book a lot. True, like some readers I thought at first it might be a follow-on to A Rising Thunder, but quickly realized given the first chapter that it was adding flesh and substance to Shadow of Freedom. Personally, I find some of the criticisms totally uncalled for and if I were in your place, Mr. Weber, I probably would have gone a bit more ballistic. Looking forward to future novels in the series.



I figure part of the problem is that the complaints are coming from inside the onion. :lol:

These are the hard core readers, many of whom have been with the series for a long time. That gives them a somewhat privileged position with me . . . although one or two of you (and you know who you are! :evil: :lol:) are getting perilously close to terminal red shirts Sometime Real Soon Now. I think some of the people who have invested 20 years or so of interest in the series have developed a certain proprietary attitude and a strong sense of where they think the series should be going and/or where they thought it was going on the basis of past books. In that sense, this is their story as much as it’s mine, and I respect their opinions even when — as the author — I don’t share them. I do think some of the language has been a bit . . . intemperate, shall we say? But as someone else pointed out upthread, I write professionally for a living and few of my readers do. I don’t think that absolves someone of the responsibilities involved in simple courtesy and civil discourse, but I do realize that it means someone may not be aware/thinking about the way in which a given word may be perceived by its recipient. And let’s face it, written communication has always been susceptible to correspondents who use language they would never use in a face-to-face conversation with the same person because the parties to the correspondence don’t have the advantage of face-to-face feedback of facial expression, body language, or immediate response to help them realize when they’re putting a foot wrong with the other fellow.

I try to bear all of that in mind when I visit the boards. Sometimes I succeed; sometimes I fail. But my awareness of that is also why the only professional writer in my immediate family (that would be me, guys) uses more emojis than anyone else in it.

As an aside, I’m one of those people who believes the internet , email, and texting has significantly undermined the sense of courtesy in discourse. Even people who would never dream of giving offense in a personal conversation lose that since of immediate intimacy and frequently write or pose things which give enormous offense. It’s even worse when the poster/writer is anonymous, but all of us are isolated/protected by that electronic interface which prevents the other party from ripping our lungs out for some utterly egregious comment made either carelessly or with malice aforethought. And for come of us, unfortunately, the fashion in which we communicate [poorly] in electronic formats seems to spill over into our face-to-face lives, which can have unhappy consequences.

But I digress. :twisted: :lol:


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinio
Post by npadln   » Thu Sep 01, 2016 12:51 pm

npadln
Commander

Posts: 214
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Disappointing to read a lot of these comments and not because they are unwarranted. I haven't bought the e-arc but I read the e-arc free chapters and while doing so a certain dread started creeping up on me when I found myself SKIMMING AND SKIPPING. I opened this thread with hope but I found my fears realized. It's telling that I sighed in resignation more than anything else. I don't believe people here are being mean in their reviews; I think they are being diplomatic. :(
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Re: SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinio
Post by phillies   » Thu Sep 01, 2016 12:57 pm

phillies
Admiral

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Location: Worcester, MA

It was an excellent book. I particularly liked the terminal scene with Albrecht Detweiler and his wife, sacrificing himself and some thousands of others to protect the four billion people on Darius ('the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few'), and the scene in which the heroine discovers that Paulo is still alive. The moment at which she is too busy crying to hear what he says next was particularly well done.

Harahap meeting Zavalas was especially amusing.

runsforcelery wrote:
I figure part of the problem is that the complaints are coming from inside the onion. :lol:

These are the hard core readers, many of whom have been with the series for a long time. That gives them a somewhat privileged position with me . . . although one or two of you (and you know who you are! :evil: :lol:) are getting perilously close to terminal red shirts Sometime Real Soon Now. I think some of the people who have invested 20 years or so of interest in the series have developed a certain proprietary attitude and a strong sense of where they think the series should be going and/or where they thought it was going on the basis of past books. In that sense, this is their story as much as it’s mine, and I respect their opinions even when — as the author — I don’t share them. I do think some of the language has been a bit . . . intemperate, shall we say? But as someone else pointed out upthread, I write professionally for a living and few of my readers do. I don’t think that absolves someone of the responsibilities involved in simple courtesy and civil discourse, but I do realize that it means someone may not be aware/thinking about the way in which a given word may be perceived by its recipient. And let’s face it, written communication has always been susceptible to correspondents who use language they would never use in a face-to-face conversation with the same person because the parties to the correspondence don’t have the advantage of face-to-face feedback of facial expression, body language, or immediate response to help them realize when they’re putting a foot wrong with the other fellow.

I try to bear all of that in mind when I visit the boards. Sometimes I succeed; sometimes I fail. But my awareness of that is also why the only professional writer in my immediate family (that would be me, guys) uses more emojis than anyone else in it.

As an aside, I’m one of those people who believes the internet , email, and texting has significantly undermined the sense of courtesy in discourse. Even people who would never dream of giving offense in a personal conversation lose that since of immediate intimacy and frequently write or pose things which give enormous offense. It’s even worse when the poster/writer is anonymous, but all of us are isolated/protected by that electronic interface which prevents the other party from ripping our lungs out for some utterly egregious comment made either carelessly or with malice aforethought. And for come of us, unfortunately, the fashion in which we communicate [poorly] in electronic formats seems to spill over into our face-to-face lives, which can have unhappy consequences.

But I digress. :twisted: :lol:
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Re: SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinio
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Sep 01, 2016 3:09 pm

Jonathan_S
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noblehunter wrote:
Is there at least one battle scene?

&

Mention of new tech off the assembly line?

&

Did Lord Skimper prove all of you wrong and he got one of his designs?
Yep.

&

Yep.

&

Nope. Though there's a trick that almost sounds like something he'd suggest, except for the part where the trick actually works.

This books is still an example of how good RFC is at what he does. He makes it look easy but I really don't think it is.
Though I will say when I first read the specs on the Charles Wade [edit:Charles Ward] I though it was almost tossing a bone to Lord Skimper and some of his obsessions. So I'd upgrade that last answer to "maybe/kinda" :D


Switching gears to to my opinion I think I was a victim of self-inflicted overhype. I knew this was supposed to be the penultimate book in the series so I'd built it up as having half the conclusion of the conflict - so as more and more is "just" fleshing out the timeline we've already seen outlines of - with a focus on Talbott and a sideline of Maya I'm having my overhype disappointed.

If I'd known going in that this really was much more the 4th Shadow book (aka Talbott focused)- and not really a "mainline" Honor focused book I'd have probably found it more enjoyable on this first read, and been less surprised it didn't have, say, 8th fleet sweeping forth in a fury. :D
Or especially if I didn't know it was intended to be the next to last book I wouldn't have had such internal expectations of giant plot advancements.

I hope, and suspect, that it will improve on subsequent rereads - once I can settle in to enjoy the detail without clashing with my misaligned expectations. (Though we'll see if I every get to the point where I can keep the Polish and Czech people and cities straight in my head)
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Re: SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinio
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Sep 01, 2016 3:56 pm

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One thing that surprised me, and I forgot to mention it until now, is that the terminii of the Włocławek-Sarduchi warp bridge hadn't already be seized as part of Lacoon.

Once the existence of that wormhole came up (and I realized it obviously handled been secured yet) I started expecting Manticore to accidentally stumble over that particular false flag operation just because they grabbed the wormhole. Instead it seems they didn't get to the system until checking for additional false flags. So, if anything, they might have secured the wormhole as a side effect of supporting the rebels against the OFS and transtellars. :D
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Re: SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinio
Post by Trevin   » Thu Sep 01, 2016 4:04 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:One thing that surprised me, and I forgot to mention it until now, is that the terminii of the Włocławek-Sarduchi warp bridge hadn't already be seized as part of Lacoon.

Once the existence of that wormhole came up (and I realized it obviously handled been secured yet) I started expecting Manticore to accidentally stumble over that particular false flag operation just because they grabbed the wormhole. Instead it seems they didn't get to the system until checking for additional false flags. So, if anything, they might have secured the wormhole as a side effect of supporting the rebels against the OFS and transtellars. :D


I had this thought too while reading SoV. At more than one point. With the additional thought that even if the Włocławek-Sarduchi warp bridge was not part of the original Lacoon then surely the on scene Manty commander would add it. Bee that Gold Peak or the other admiral (who's name escapes me) who was sending out forces.
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Re: SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinio
Post by justdave   » Thu Sep 01, 2016 4:14 pm

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Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 127
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IIRC when aRT came out the MWW told us it had become too big. So he removed what became SoV, it then parallels aRT and CoG. All three of which set the table for the planned finale in 2018
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Re: SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinio
Post by NervousEnergy   » Thu Sep 01, 2016 4:16 pm

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runsforcelery wrote:
The count is one.

And unless something in my thinking changes significantly between now and the end of that book, several of the characters who figured in this one will figure prominently in it. Any writer who tells you he isn't open to changing his mind if a Better Idea occurs to him isn't doiing his job, but they weren't inserted/developed (or killed off to make spaces) on a whim, guys.

I do not promise that all loose ends will be neatly tied up in one book or that there won't be a hook (or two . . . or three ;)) at the end of the next book from which additional books can be developed, but the story line I originally envisioned at the end of OBS will be wrapped up in the next book.

So I guess you can say the plot will be advanced in that one. :lol:

Wow, the next one is going to be crazy.

This was a really good book... maybe not quite as focused as Shadow of Saganami (the action was on too many disconnected planets), but the craft was awesome, and I didn't think it ever really bogged down. Might have been a bit light on 'glorious space battles', but the one we did have oozed quality... one of the best of the series for small engagements. I've got the ARC, of course, and I'll happily pick up the hardback.

If I were to offer a couple of minor post-read criticisms:

- Probably could have culled one of the insurrection plotlines. I honestly kept getting Chotěboř and Włocławek mentally confused with each other.

- Had to mentally *bleep* over quite a few of the names and organization that were impossible to pronounce, even mentally. That made it harder to keep up with what was going on.

- I'll need to re-read it a few more times, as I'm still not sure what happened on Cherubim. The resistance movement there always felt a lot more 'amateur hour', then they somehow took advantage of an unanticipated government destabilization by an unknown outside party and mopped up, and Zavala appears from stage left. Neat, but a bit bewildering.

As for post-ending commentary, I always suspected that the MA was going to blame the inevitable invading Manty fleet for large parts of Houdini. Using Audrey to not directly blame them but to note the coincidence was a great stroke.

I'll be disappointed, though, if Houdini worked 100% in terms of covering tracks. The Mad Wizard almost ALWAYS goes to great lengths to show that no plan is perfect, and so far (from what we've seen) the MA is batting 1000 on Houdini. It's almost impossible it would be so, however, given the numbers being moved. A few people won't have been at those assembly sites, at the very least, due to chance. Just one that got missed and has some second thoughts after seeing how close he/she came to being killed along with everyone else will be all they need.

I'm betting the series ends with Darius discovered and conquered, but the RF still there, and still directed by it's True Believers.
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Re: SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinio
Post by Alistair   » Thu Sep 01, 2016 4:35 pm

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Switching gears to to my opinion I think I was a victim of self-inflicted overhype. I knew this was supposed to be the penultimate book in the series so I'd built it up as having half the conclusion of the conflict - so as more and more is "just" fleshing out the timeline we've already seen outlines of - with a focus on Talbott and a sideline of Maya I'm having my overhype disappointed.

If I'd known going in that this really was much more the 4th Shadow book (aka Talbott focused)- and not really a "mainline" Honor focused book I'd have probably found it more enjoyable on this first read, and been less surprised it didn't have, say, 8th fleet sweeping forth in a fury. :D
Or especially if I didn't know it was intended to be the next to last book I wouldn't have had such internal expectations of giant plot advancements.

I hope, and suspect, that it will improve on subsequent rereads - once I can settle in to enjoy the detail without clashing with my misaligned expectations. (Though we'll see if I every get to the point where I can keep the Polish and Czech people and cities straight in my head)[/quote]



Only read the free chapters so have just read only selected comments But I think from reading the few comments that over rated hype on plot advancement is what comes to mind when I read the comments.

I myself before reading here was thinking that this is the second to last book of the whole series so it will advance the plot a lot but it seems from selected reads hear not so much.

I'm OK with that, but I do hope when DW writes the last book that it isn't a once over lightly in a race to the finish I would rather he write two final books to cover the end of a very LONG but excellent series that gives me and I hope all devoted Honour Harrington fans a sense "repletion".

So thanks crtics of the book it will lower my expectations of what this book will accomplish plot wise which is good for me.
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Re: SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinio
Post by feyhunde   » Thu Sep 01, 2016 5:35 pm

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My general comments.

Because of the overall length and sheer amount of new stuff, I'm content.

However, I'll join the bandwagon that parts of this I'm not 100$ happy with. It will be easier to judge it when Honor in Finality is out.

Stuff I didn't like: again the rehash/clocking reset on several characters, including scenes right after scenes 12 published years ago. I think for more casual readers it might be more necessary. Akin to discussions on necessity of recaps for TV shows with cult followings, it can be necessary for someone who wasn't me re-reading the entire honorverse while waiting for this book. Otoh going pre First Manticore (Or should it be considered Third Manticore now due to the prequels?) was a lurch. I also didn't like the back tracking on worlds liberated in SoF, since the ending was known.

I also thought it got a bit hard to track the action on the opposing planets. I'll admit I had that issue in SoF as well.

Stuff I liked, advancing the plot, seeing the progress and expansion in the TC, the operational realities of Janus coming apart. The Sollies getting beat. The insite into the final flourish.

Stuff I'd like to see: A re-edited version of everything from basically 2003 onward in a chronological order. Torch, Honor, Shadows combined. Possibly in some omnibus version. Not sure if it would be economically feasible, but might be something for years down the road.
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