Honorverse system destroyer

Somtaaw wrote:

MAD-4A wrote:As to surface tension, that would be broken by the wedge/shields not the ships bow. If you really want to hit a solar core with a physical ship, I think a more practical way to go would be to (somehow) overcome the gravity shadow in hyper. race in at c+ then drop across the Alfa-wall inside the core.

Except it's basic fact you literally CANNOT translate out of hyper that close to a star. The shortest range I've made a note of for a hyper limit, was Nuncio and I'll grab the exact distance for that hyper limit after I finish eating, and dig through Shadows of Saganami for the exact range. Off-hand, it was only something like 30 or 40 light-minutes, and most stars are considerably more, but I'm building a small database of every single mention of star type + hyperlimit I'll post that later when I finish the latest reading through all the books to ensure I catch them all.

You're gonna make something like this bit from More than Honor?

Grashtel wrote:

Somtaaw wrote:

Except it's basic fact you literally CANNOT translate out of hyper that close to a star. The shortest range I've made a note of for a hyper limit, was Nuncio and I'll grab the exact distance for that hyper limit after I finish eating, and dig through Shadows of Saganami for the exact range. Off-hand, it was only something like 30 or 40 light-minutes, and most stars are considerably more, but I'm building a small database of every single mention of star type + hyperlimit I'll post that later when I finish the latest reading through all the books to ensure I catch them all.

You're gonna make something like this bit from More than Honor?

totally did not know that existed yet, but bookmarking it now.

Somtaaw wrote:Except it's basic fact you literally CANNOT translate out of hyper that close to a star. The shortest range I've made a note of for a hyper limit, was Nuncio and I'll grab the exact distance for that hyper limit after I finish eating, and dig through Shadows of Saganami for the exact range. Off-hand, it was only something like 30 or 40 light-minutes, and most stars are considerably more, but I'm building a small database of every single mention of star type + hyperlimit I'll post that later when I finish the latest reading through all the books to ensure I catch them all.

Your 2 posts indicate that you didn't read my post, I said that you CAN'T convert an existing ship - it would be a new design, as to hyper-limits - that is 1) "safe" hyper limit and 2) subject to future technology/development, as would the wedge-funnel concept but (considering current Honorverse stated tech) the ramming concept has clearly been shot down as-well. As I said - the research for overcoming the Hyper-limit may (and likely would be) easier to overcome/develop than the tech needed to fly into the core of a star at c-. All they really need to develop is the tech to overcome the gravitic sheer and to "drop" something out across the Alfa-wall while inside the Hyper-limit, not transition the entire ship - the ship flies through the hyper coordinates corresponding to the star just above the Alfa-wall and as it passes the coordinates of the core it "drops" it's "Nova-Bomb" out and across the wall and keeps going. The unmanned "bomb" is all that transitions. Not with 'current' tech, but then there's no such thing as FLT communication either (regarding OBS or HOtQ 'current' tech). There's no way that there no-one in the 'current' Honorverse researching Gravitic sheer and trying to find a way to overcome it. 'Future' tech would see a reduction in the effective Hyper-limit as new tech comes out to better counter gravitic sheer and thus allow ship to travel closer to the source-of-Mass (star). This would be of special interest to both Military developers (closer to target) and shipping interests (drop out closer to the market). A civilian transport having to transit to c- further in would shave considerable time (and thus money) off of each trip - a civilian transport only makes money while in port unloading. That's when it gets paid. ALL other time it costs money (fuel, crew pay, wear-&-tear, loading costs, etc.) so the closer it can get to port/station in hyper the sooner it gets paid reloads and gets to the next pay-day.

MAD-4A wrote:

Somtaaw wrote:Except it's basic fact you literally CANNOT translate out of hyper that close to a star. The shortest range I've made a note of for a hyper limit, was Nuncio and I'll grab the exact distance for that hyper limit after I finish eating, and dig through Shadows of Saganami for the exact range. Off-hand, it was only something like 30 or 40 light-minutes, and most stars are considerably more, but I'm building a small database of every single mention of star type + hyperlimit I'll post that later when I finish the latest reading through all the books to ensure I catch them all.

Your 2 posts indicate that you didn't read my post, I said that you CAN'T convert an existing ship - it would be a new design, as to hyper-limits - that is 1) "safe" hyper limit and 2) subject to future technology/development, as would the wedge-funnel concept but (considering current Honorverse stated tech) the ramming concept has clearly been shot down as-well. As I said - the research for overcoming the Hyper-limit may (and likely would be) easier to overcome/develop than the tech needed to fly into the core of a star at c-. All they really need to develop is the tech to overcome the gravitic sheer and to "drop" something out across the Alfa-wall while inside the Hyper-limit, not transition the entire ship - the ship flies through the hyper coordinates corresponding to the star just above the Alfa-wall and as it passes the coordinates of the core it "drops" it's "Nova-Bomb" out and across the wall and keeps going. The unmanned "bomb" is all that transitions. Not with 'current' tech, but then there's no such thing as FLT communication either (regarding OBS or HOtQ 'current' tech). There's no way that there no-one in the 'current' Honorverse researching Gravitic sheer and trying to find a way to overcome it.

And your posts prove YOU don't read. I'll rephrase to be more clear.

Unless RFC says otherwise... IT. IS. NOT. POSSIBLE. to use a combination of hyper and bypassing hyperlimits. NOT POSSIBLE. No matter what research you try to claim to be doing.


And a wedge funnel, whether you use an existing ship design, or brand new, still has to bypass wedge mechanics. Which dictate impeller rings MUST be placed within certain portions of a ship design (+/- 20% of the extreme ends iirc), among other "you have to do it THIS way, or else" rulings, and that even the longest wedges aren't even a tiny amount of what's necessary.

Seriously, do you even understand "space is big"? The longest wedges aren't even 0.1% of a lightsecond (299,792 km). And even binary stars don't orbit each other at a lightsecond, which takes that 0.1% and makes it even worse when you start looking at lightminutes, let alone the far more probable binary orbital paths measured in lightdays.


And for trying to use a "hyper deployed bomb" that drops across the limit, keep in mind to come through the hyper limit intact, requires at the very minimum a hyper generator. So your bomb, is now a minimum 10,000 tons which in the many many hyper-related threads we've more or less locked down as "this is how big a hyper generator is". And if your target star is serviced by a grav wave, you're looking at more like 20 ktons for your bomb exclusive of payload.

And that's again ignoring the relatively minor issue, that unless RFC goes and changes how his universe operates, the hyperlimit is pretty much inviolable. Argue as much as you want, but the author's word is still final, and since that word is 100% the opposite of what you're trying to claim can be done, I think I'm going to go with "stop trying to be Skimper" here.

I'm out though, this is becoming rather pointless to argue.

Somtaaw wrote:And that's again ignoring the relatively minor issue, that unless RFC goes and changes how his universe operates, the hyperlimit is pretty much inviolable. Argue as much as you want, but the author's word is still final, and since that word is 100% the opposite of what you're trying to claim can be done, I think I'm going to go with "stop trying to be Skimper" here.

I'm out though, this is becoming rather pointless to argue.

And there's the other minor issue that, by and large, RFC populated the Honorverse with people who (if for no other reason than self preservation) aren't interested in launching indiscriminate genocidal attacks. Even if the tech logically implied that a nova bomb of some sort could be built no-one sane is going to build or use one lest the rest of the known galaxy band together in self defense to exterminate the perpetrators.

Jonathan_S wrote:And there's the other minor issue that, by and large, RFC populated the Honorverse with people who (if for no other reason than self preservation) aren't interested in launching indiscriminate genocidal attacks. Even if the tech logically implied that a nova bomb of some sort could be built no-one sane is going to build or use one lest the rest of the known galaxy band together in self defense to exterminate the perpetrators.

Actually that's not true. If it were, then the Eridani Edict would not be part of the SL's Constitution.

Obviously there have been and probably still are "folks interested in launching indiscriminate genocidal attacks", since a prior book notes that the article that consists of the Eridani Edict has been enforced by the SLN several times in it's history against various un-named (and possibly no longer existent) aggressors.

As for the last point, if anyone *did* develop a "sun killer" weapon, I suspect they wouldn't let anyone know they had, they'd just clandestinely use it. You can't "exterminate a perpetrator" if you don't know who it is.

At least part of this thread seems to require a means of overcoming the hyper limit of a star.

I don't recall an actual textual source - maybe someone else can reference one - that says a translation isn't *possible* within the limit; it's just not survivable for a ship due to gravometric shear forces.

*If* those forces could be "smoothed out" in a small area, then perhaps something smaller, and very "tough", could survive the translation. I think that's what some previous posters are postulating - have the ship in hyper use some means to "smooth" out the gravity gradient in an area just big enough to allow the creation of a transitional tunnel the bomb could fit through.

Obviously, even if it could be done, there are issues. The tunnel would probably go both ways, and you certainly wouldn't want stellar-core-temperature/pressure plasma ejected back through the tunnel either into your ship or right along side it. It would be like a nuclear tipped missile going off within the ship's impeller bands and sidewalls.

And the "field" probably couldn't be projected, it would probably need some sort of circular ring of nodes with the countering grav field being formed *inside* of it.

So even if it were theoretically *possible*, it still would have some significant technical problems to overcome. Probably more than the current technology level would allow.

OrlandoNative wrote:I don't recall an actual textual source - maybe someone else can reference one - that says a translation isn't *possible* within the limit; it's just not survivable for a ship due to gravometric shear forces.

It's been posted a couple of times: "in the outer 20% or so, you just can't translate out of hyper. In the inner 80% the effect is like shooting a soft-boiled egg at a brick wall." OWTTE


If you can't translate in the outer 20%, what makes you think you can somehow translate inside that distance?

Think of it as a sudden deceleration from 60+ times the speed of light to zero in the length of your ship or missile.

Somtaaw wrote:Except it's basic fact you literally CANNOT translate out of hyper that close to a star. The shortest range I've made a note of for a hyper limit, was Nuncio and I'll grab the exact distance for that hyper limit after I finish eating, and dig through Shadows of Saganami for the exact range. Off-hand, it was only something like 30 or 40 light-minutes, and most stars are considerably more, but I'm building a small database of every single mention of star type + hyperlimit I'll post that later when I finish the latest reading through all the books to ensure I catch them all.

As far as I recall, basically you COULD translate - but the ship would be obliterated in process. I'm not sure, would the energy of the blast remain in hyperspace, or it would be translated.

Also, we have Mesan spider drive, which is close to tearing holes through the Alpha Wall. Which means, that it's probably theoretically possible to send some impulses from hyperspace to normal space.

Dilandu wrote:

Somtaaw wrote:Except it's basic fact you literally CANNOT translate out of hyper that close to a star. The shortest range I've made a note of for a hyper limit, was Nuncio and I'll grab the exact distance for that hyper limit after I finish eating, and dig through Shadows of Saganami for the exact range. Off-hand, it was only something like 30 or 40 light-minutes, and most stars are considerably more, but I'm building a small database of every single mention of star type + hyperlimit I'll post that later when I finish the latest reading through all the books to ensure I catch them all.

As far as I recall, basically you COULD translate - but the ship would be obliterated in process. I'm not sure, would the energy of the blast remain in hyperspace, or it would be translated.

Also, we have Mesan spider drive, which is close to tearing holes through the Alpha Wall. Which means, that it's probably theoretically possible to send some impulses from hyperspace to normal space.

We don't actually know what happens to a ship, other than the description of: "firing a soft-boiled egg at a brick wall" That would actually imply something along the lines of instantaneous destruction/disintegration of the ship, probably explosively coming apart. And that's for anything doing it within the inner 80% of the hyperlimit zone.

But since the outer 20% area of a hyper limit is also

any ship that tries to translate in the outer 20%, cant

, that would also imply it's also impossible to translate within the inner 80%. It's almost contradictory information, but it's clear that translating inside that hyperlimit, either you can't or Bad Things Happen, and eliminate any possibility of hyper deployed Alpha-band crossing weapons, whether bomb, missile, or Unmanned Armed Vehicles.

Coloration was from Vince in the Hyper torp thread, and I'm just too lazy to strip it back out, since it highlights exactly what we need to see.

Echoes of Honor, Chapter 33 wrote:Karen Lowe was an excellent astrogator, but a hyper voyage this long provided a great deal of scope for minor astrogation errors to produce major results. Overshooting their intended n-space translation point wouldn't be all that terrible . . . unless, of course, they overshot it too badly. A ship which attempted to translate out of hyper inside a star's hyper limit couldn't. As long as it made the attempt within the outer twenty percent of the hyper limit, all that happened was that it couldn't get into n-space. If it made the attempt any further in than that, however, Bad Things happened. Someone had once described the result as using a pulse cannon to fire soft-boiled eggs at a stone wall to see if they would bounce. Lester Tourville rather doubted they would, and even if he was wrong, it was a proposition he had no desire at all to test firsthand.