SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinions

jgnfld wrote:
Possibly. But if they are not instrumented to detect nuke explosions, IMO that would be silly.

We here right now with our tech can observe (possible) nukes from space with high temporal and spatial precision as part of our monitoring programs. I find it hard to believe the tech wouldn't be far better for Honorpeople. The textev is they immediately had locations, counts, and yield levels. Surely they had time marks too, IMO at least.

I didn't say they wouldn't detect that they'd happened. I only noted that they probably would not have collected sufficiently *precise* data - if they weren't specifically looking for it - to use detonation timing to establish an epicenter.

clancy688 wrote:I really am wondering what MWW and Bean were thinking when they created this. I mean, they are reading the forums. They absolutely knew what we were expecting (a mainline novel), just as they absolutely knew what we were not expecting (another glorious side-show with almost no chronological progression).

Tl;dr:
I really feel a bit cheated here... :/

I'm not sure Baen really has that degree of control over the story in each book.

Yes, they exert some degree of editorial control (probably if the book got *too* disjointed they might require changes), but a lot of publishers contract for some # of books from an author in some sort of series without necessarily approving each and every individual story line.

It's possible they were told that this book would "tie up loose ends" and "flesh out some areas" left in some of the previous ones. That's not a lie, it certainly did that. Whether those areas and ends were really something the readership was actually interested in is another question.

One of the things that, unfortunately, seems to lead to books like this is that a popular author with popular series can easily get away with a few titles like this. If you've read, enjoyed, and collected the rest of it, you're pretty much going to acquire this one as well no matter whether it's good or bad, just so you have the entire series. Of course, given reviews like you find here, you might wait and get it used, rather than new, or wait until it hits a Barnes and Noble "Value Titles" table.

runsforcelery wrote:I always try to give fair value for the time my readers invest. Clearly, for some people, that doesn't always happen. There are reasons this books is where it is and does what it does, including the fact that I've been asked --- repeatedly and often --- for exactly the additional time with the characters which some of you are complaining about. That's probably a case of different strokes and readers who want different things. but it was one of many factors which went into the way in which I structured the book.

And, in general, I'd say you succeed quite well. To be honest, this is the *first* Honorverse book that really seems, except for perhaps a chapter or two's worth of test, mostly unnecessary.

Or, for that matter, of *any* of the books of yours I've read - which is pretty much all of them outside of the "War God" or "Assiti Shards" series.

That said, I think what those folks who wanted "more time with characters" meant was more time spent *in one place* or within one book during the series of events it covers. Not necessarily going back in time to "fill in". Certainly it seemed to me most parts of this book really *belonged* in sections of others already published.

Now, if this book had covered the more of the Alignment side - namely, perhaps, the discovery and development of Darius along with more emphasis on other phases of the Alignment's plan, it might be different. But much of it is like some sort of mirror view of bits and pieces of what the Alignment is doing. You don't get a sense of a real story line plot.

It's an established method to sometimes do "flashbacks" - other authors do them and so do films - to establish why some past incident may have made a character do something in the present, but that's not the kind of explaining this book does. These aren't "flashbacks", they're more like omitted parts of previous stories. As someone noted previously, like the "extras" on the end of a DVD version of a movie with "previously deleted scenes". I suspect most people buy the DVD for the movie, and not really for the "extras", they're just a nice, added touch.

runsforcelery wrote:There's no point doing this if I don't.

Actually, there *is* a point - namely to generate income. I'm sure that there are many series where that's the author's main reason to write. And perhaps not so oriented on the quality of the work.

The fact that you don't look at it that way is refreshingly professional.

OrlandoNative wrote:

clancy688 wrote:I really am wondering what MWW and Bean were thinking when they created this. I mean, they are reading the forums. They absolutely knew what we were expecting (a mainline novel), just as they absolutely knew what we were not expecting (another glorious side-show with almost no chronological progression).

Tl;dr:
I really feel a bit cheated here... :/

I'm not sure Baen really has that degree of control over the story in each book.

Yes, they exert some degree of editorial control (probably if the book got *too* disjointed they might require changes), but a lot of publishers contract for some # of books from an author in some sort of series without necessarily approving each and every individual story line.

It's possible they were told that this book would "tie up loose ends" and "flesh out some areas" left in some of the previous ones. That's not a lie, it certainly did that. Whether those areas and ends were really something the readership was actually interested in is another question.

One of the things that, unfortunately, seems to lead to books like this is that a popular author with popular series can easily get away with a few titles like this. If you've read, enjoyed, and collected the rest of it, you're pretty much going to acquire this one as well no matter whether it's good or bad, just so you have the entire series. Of course, given reviews like you find here, you might wait and get it used, rather than new, or wait until it hits a Barnes and Noble "Value Titles" table.

You having said that OrlandoNative, I suspect that this book will become even more important in the overall scheme of things after the series is complete. And will be a necessary part of one's collection. Now that the fleshing out is done and the final book can be handled heartily. And since RFC himself has verified only one more book, it promises to be a two-hour special er 99 Chapter special!

Fleshing is good. I like flesh. Gives me an opportunity to visit more with the characters.

Don't get me wrong. I wanted to see the revelation of Darius. I wanted to see the SL acknowledgement that they've been had. I wanted to see death and dismemberment. I wanted to see Shannon and Sonja hard at work at Bolthole. I wanted to see the who and what behind the Beowulf atrocity. Don't know if any of that has come to pass - still awaiting the hardback...

Having said all that, anyone willing to tell us eARCless challenged forumites what we all want to know...

Is there at least one battle scene?

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Mention of new tech off the assembly line?

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Did Lord Skimper prove all of you wrong and he got one of his designs?

runsforcelery wrote:Of course, if they were always delighted with every single word he ever wrote, that would be even better, but . . . .

Perhaps that's why some writers - though maybe not many - get independently wealthy from the income from their works, and others fall into the 'struggling writer' category.

I suspect that the ones who fall somewhere in between are the ones who "delight" their readership at least most of the time...

Eagleeye wrote:But one thing really did upset me.

SOV, e-ARC, Chapter 17 wrote:something called Eroica by some ancient composer named Bayhoven

(Bolded text marked by me)
I hope that is simply a typo that get corrected until the final edit hits the bookshops. The guy who wrote Eroica is named Beethoven, after all ...

Actually, I sort of think that's deliberate. Many of the attributions to quotes and or parts of pre-space Earth history figures aren't exactly correct. I think it's designed to reflect just how long it's been since humanity was a pre-space culture. And how knowledge has been lost or altered as it spread out amongst the stars.

runsforcelery wrote:He is an absolute, 100% certified Believer, and so is his wife. He's just authorized the deaths of thousands, and more thousands are going to be killed, to be certain the onion's membership disappears tracelessly. His survival isn't necessary to the working out of the plan that's been put into motion, and — believe it or not — he actually feels a sense of responsibility and (dare I say it?) guilt over the cost of the accelerated Houdini. He now has a fleet in-system that isn't going to let a microbe leave the planet — or the system – until it has been thoroughly inspected, and the very act of thermonuclear destruction he's about to carry out — which has to be carried out under Houdini is going to start investigators trying to figure out what got covered up and what might be trying to hide.

We've never really seen an ounce of conscience in him in any other part of the story line. I'll grant he's a "true believer". But in most cases "true believers" don't exactly *want* to morph into martyrs if they can escape it. Most just don't have the *resources* to escape it. I doubt he fell into that category.

To take an example from another series of yours, to you think the "Grand Inquisitor" would willingly become a martyr just to advance his side's Jihad? I sort of doubt it.

runsforcelery wrote:Under the circumstances, his actions are — in his opinion — necessary, and trying to "hide in the general population" would risk undoing the very thing he killed all those people to accomplish.

And that's why he did it.

There would have been no reason for him to "hide in the general population". I agree that would have been risky and, for that matter, extremely stupid. Manticore may not have any idea of who any leader of the Alignment might be, but I suspect Beowulf would suspect a connection with a specific family, wouldn't it?

No, I'd say he'd hide in some well stocked hidden location (underground base?) which had no discernible ties to any of his family's holdings.

After all, does *any* "true believer" in control of the whole movement usually feel they're not needed to remain in that position?

jgnfld wrote:

phillies wrote:And one major thread does come to complete total closure. With a BOOM of several megatons.

Readers will find a few minor typos. None are significant. One might have been hard for a noon-mathematical editor to spot. (Alternatively, claims of the Invincible Solarian League Navy that the neobarbs produce SDs by buying old frigates, and painting "I ARE SUPERDREADNOT" on the side, are validated, in that a fleet of 62 of them is identified by the Mesan Space Navy as having a mass of a half-million tons rather than the expected half-billion tons. )

Yes. Big Gotterdammerung. But in truth, as was pointed out elsewhere, the real need for Siegfried and Brunhilde, at least, to die at that moment seems forced at best. With their resources they most certainly should have been able to bury themselves deep somewhere for a while and escape to Darius later.

What kind of interstellar master evil overlord doesn't have a cutout or ten ready and waiting?

My suspicion is that taking Albrecht out of the picture was necessary to allow the MAlign to head in new directions. He was too wedded to the plan as it existed. I'll bet that his "sons" are going to rethink a few things.

Is there at least one battle scene?

&

Mention of new tech off the assembly line?

&

Did Lord Skimper prove all of you wrong and he got one of his designs?

Yep.

&

Yep.

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Nope. Though there's a trick that almost sounds like something he'd suggest, except for the part where the trick actually works.

This books is still an example of how good RFC is at what he does. He makes it look easy but I really don't think it is.