ATST snippet #5

Joat42 wrote:

Dilandu wrote:Frankly, I think that they are talking about the advantages/disadvantages of using airships for army and navy.

No, they specifically say "haul a lot more of both" in reference to the acid & zink.

Precisely, the Army can haul a lot more of both around than any individual ship. The only possible referent for the pronoun "they" in the text is 'the army' There is no noun meaning balloon or airship in the entire paragraph.

ATST wrote:By the time the weather permitted the Allies to resume offensive operations, they might well be facing as many as three million well-dug in troops along a front that extended all the way from Hsing-wu’s Passage to Hankey Sound.

<big snip>
Well, the Empire of Charis had confronted apparently insoluble problems before, he reminded himself. They’d just have to do it again.

As soon as he or someone else came up with a clue as to how they did it.

What shall we do with this impregnable wall of fortifications? Oh, that's right, we're a naval power, let's go round it.

After all, the only bit of ground the EoC needs to take is eminently accessible by sea, at least in summer. Better yet the only troops anywhere near Zion are the "Inquisition's Own". Almost by definition they and their commanders have zero combat experience and zero experience facing any of the new model weapons. Every one of them KIA represents a weakening of Clyntahn's hold on the CoGA and another nail in his coffin. To that extent even a raid in force would be worthwhile and result in a diversion of men, materiel and attention from elsewhere. Maybe they could even take Brother Lynkyn and some of his key associates off for a nice island holiday while they are at it.

Of course, applying Media Studies 101 suggests it won't actually happen that way; there is still another book to come. OTOH this is the end of Chapter 3. Do you suppose we are going to get another 270,000 words of the EoC sitting thinking, "If only we could figure out some way of getting out of this deadlock"?

That's putting the cart before the horse. It's not like Charis and Siddarmark can afford to pull out a significant amount of troops to do an end run on Zion. If they do, those 3 million troops in the Mighty Host can go on the offensive with crushing local superiority. So they need to neutralize the Mighty Host first, then deal with Zion.

Duckk wrote:That's putting the cart before the horse. It's not like Charis and Siddarmark can afford to pull out a significant amount of troops to do an end run on Zion. If they do, those 3 million troops in the Mighty Host can go on the offensive with crushing local superiority. So they need to neutralize the Mighty Host first, then deal with Zion.

That's certainly how Rainbow Waters seems to be thinking. Partly it depends on how many troops you reckon would be needed to be effective in Zion. I think RFC has been deliberately vague about the size of forces available there, although a figure of 30,000 pops into the back of my mind from somewhere. With 3,000,000 men you would think RW could already organise crushing local superiority somewhere without too much difficulty, but he seems to be playing a longer game.

Presumably he thinks he has the strategic advantage, that the Temple Loyalist economy can just outproduce the EoC if he gives it long enough, leading to an easy and decisive win. I wonder if someone is going to enlighten him, or it is all going to bite him in some sensitive portion of his anatomy later?

Randomiser wrote:

Duckk wrote:That's putting the cart before the horse. It's not like Charis and Siddarmark can afford to pull out a significant amount of troops to do an end run on Zion. If they do, those 3 million troops in the Mighty Host can go on the offensive with crushing local superiority. So they need to neutralize the Mighty Host first, then deal with Zion.

That's certainly how Rainbow Waters seems to be thinking. Partly it depends on how many troops you reckon would be needed to be effective in Zion. I think RFC has been deliberately vague about the size of forces available there, although a figure of 30,000 pops into the back of my mind from somewhere. With 3,000,000 men you would think RW could already organise crushing local superiority somewhere without too much difficulty, but he seems to be playing a longer game.

Presumably he thinks he has the strategic advantage, that the Temple Loyalist economy can just outproduce the EoC if he gives it long enough, leading to an easy and decisive win. I wonder if someone is going to enlighten him, or it is all going to bite him in some sensitive portion of his anatomy later?

Has it occurred to anyone that actually invading Zion might be A Bad Idea™ in the view of whatever lives under the Temple?

Just asking.

Whoopeeeeeeee!!! Airships!!!

As artillery spotters, airships are unbeatable, at least at the current technology level. Can't wait to read how the doctrine for using them will evolve.

Betcha that's the centerpiece for Nahrman's "little brainstorm" concerning fire control. Any takers?

It's clear from the last couple snippets, plus the little bit of him we saw in HFQ, that Rainbow Waters is no dummy. He knows Charis' strength lies in its artillery. He knows his strength lies in his numbers. So the best way forward in his mind is to neutralize Charis' advantages while maximizing his own. In this case, erect a massively deep, complex line of fortifications that even Charis and Siddarmark will have trouble blasting through. His goal is to make them bleed for every inch of ground they take. And when it gets too costly to hold a line, fall back to the next set of entrenchments and force them to do it all over again. The allies can't afford to fight a war of attrition, but Rainbow Waters can.

Dilandu wrote:Not just balloons, I think. They used the term "gas cells"; generally it is used only in context with rigid airships.

Of course I may be mistaken, but it seems that doctor Karl Lanz and professor Johann Schütte finally won this round)

They were also talking about the hydrochloric acid "eating away" at the balloon cells. This makes me think that whatever process they're using to convert hydrochloric acid into hydrogen isn't 100% efficient so that some acid is making it into the cells. So I think the use of cells is a maintenance issue: it keeps them from having to replace the whole balloon at regular intervals.

Also a safety issue, if one cell pops due to the acid issue, the whole balloon doesn't just drop out of the sky. The other cells still retain buoyancy and the balloon comes down at less than lethal velocities.

And Green Valley is clearly thinking of the new balloons being used purely as artillery spotters. Given that he's part of the Inner Circle and has access to radio comms, I'd think he'd be as up to date on what the balloons are going to be used for as anyone back in Charis.

runsforcelery wrote:

Randomiser wrote:[snip]

That's certainly how Rainbow Waters seems to be thinking. Partly it depends on how many troops you reckon would be needed to be effective in Zion. I think RFC has been deliberately vague about the size of forces available there, although a figure of 30,000 pops into the back of my mind from somewhere. With 3,000,000 men you would think RW could already organise crushing local superiority somewhere without too much difficulty, but he seems to be playing a longer game.

Presumably he thinks he has the strategic advantage, that the Temple Loyalist economy can just outproduce the EoC if he gives it long enough, leading to an easy and decisive win. I wonder if someone is going to enlighten him, or it is all going to bite him in some sensitive portion of his anatomy later?

Has it occurred to anyone that actually invading Zion might be A Bad Idea™ in the view of whatever lives under the Temple?

Just asking.

But to threaten to do so might well draw off some of Rainbow Waters' forces.

Yes? No? (Not really expecting an answer . . . )
.

Duckk wrote:It's clear from the last couple snippets, plus the little bit of him we saw in HFQ, that Rainbow Waters is no dummy. He knows Charis' strength lies in its artillery. He knows his strength lies in his numbers. So the best way forward in his mind is to neutralize Charis' advantages while maximizing his own. In this case, erect a massively deep, complex line of fortifications that even Charis and Siddarmark will have trouble blasting through. His goal is to make them bleed for every inch of ground they take. And when it gets too costly to hold a line, fall back to the next set of entrenchments and force them to do it all over again. The allies can't afford to fight a war of attrition, but Rainbow Waters can.

And unless the Charisian commanders suddenly develop a case of mushroom-induced idiocy, they are NOT going to attack Rainbow waters fortifications in anything like his own terms. We've been told many times that Charisian weapons still hold the qualitative (range AND portability) edge against Church weapons, even if the numerical advantage is shifting. Now that artillery has the range and accuracy to fire "over the horizon" and hit its target, artillery spotting has become of paramount importance. And these new airships are going to fill in quite nicely in that role.

This is how I see things playing out: slow advance towards Rainbow Water's lines. Stop. Dig in. Bring up artillery until the enemy's first line of fortifications is just within range. Send up spotter airship. Airship signals to artillery "fire here, here and here, oh and here too for good measure". First line gets pounded until the second line effectively becomes the first. Rinse and repeat. Basically, the war has shifted to trench and position warfare, with artillery doing the killing and infantry protecting the artillery.

Now, Rainbow Waters is no dunce, so he's not going to take this lying down, but his options are much worse. He doesn't have the range to effectively counter Charisian heavy artillery, and cannot make any kind of rush to quickly bring his own artillery forward, since it's been noted that Church artillery is nowhere near as mobile as Charisian artillery. If he's going to rush, it will be with his infantry - against Charisian regulars, in a defensive position, with supporting light and heavy artillery. I doubt he'll take that path, but then again, who knows what will happen when Clyntahn starts demanding results.

If he stands on the defensive, he gets methodically pounded, one line after another. If he attacks, he has to give up his advantage, both in artillery and defense positions, to attack entrenched Charisians. Can't think of a third option right now.

--edit--

Actually, there IS a third option - fall back to a location with a MUCH broader front, one where Rainbow Waters can effectively make use of his enormous numeric advantage. In this case, a rush could work, by giving the Charisians simply too many targets to knock down in time.
This has the inconvenient of being.. well, a retreat, and just picture Clyntahn's reaction to THAT.

--end edit--

Comments, anyone?