SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinions

clancy688 wrote:I fully agree with the main critique of this book:

I fail to see where this is a "Honor Harrington" mainline book. Because it totally isn't, and I'm really really disappointed that it isn't. Imho it was being advertised as one, yet the main plot was literally untouched. Just like another reader here I kinda regret getting the eARC, because what's in there is totally not the information I was looking for.

I really am wondering what MWW and Bean were thinking when they created this. I mean, they are reading the forums. They absolutely knew what we were expecting (a mainline novel), just as they absolutely knew what we were not expecting (another glorious side-show with almost no chronological progression).

Tl;dr:
I really feel a bit cheated here... :/

Okay, guys.

I'm sorry that so many of you clearly feel that the book failed to advance the plot. I obviously disagree with that point, but I'm only the author. And, BTW, that last sentence is not a snit at people expressing their opinions. There are time an author feels a story has to go one place, cover one set of events and set things in line, when his readers don't agree, and that's legitimate.

I always try to give fair value for the time my readers invest. Clearly, for some people, that doesn't always happen. There are reasons this books is where it is and does what it does, including the fact that I've been asked --- repeatedly and often --- for exactly the additional time with the characters which some of you are complaining about. That's probably a case of different strokes and readers who want different things. but it was one of many factors which went into the way in which I structured the book.

Any writer --- or any other sort of craftsman --- is obviously disappointed when his readers/fans/supporters are anything short of ecstatic over his latest work. Most of us get used to that, since we don't get to hit every ball out of the park. I personally like this book --- a lot --- or I wouldn't have turned it loose and turned it in, but if you feel disappointed in it, that's certainly your right. I do take a certain umbrage at verbs like "cheated," but that's probably because I'm human and because to me, at least, that implies that someone "phoned it in," which, I assure you, was not the case here. Whether the book works for you as a reader or not, there was a lot pf thought behind the scene selections I made and I always try to give you guys the best I've got.

There's no point doing this if I don't.

I can see where RFC is coming from. I really like the book and obviously a huge of work has got into writing it, for which I am very, very appreciative. I feel it has given a vast amount of more background which is great.

Is it perhaps in places a lot of things that our author really would have liked to put in the earlier books, but ran out of space to include?

Personally I would have like to have seen the plot extended beyond Gold Peak getting to Mesa, but then I'm not the author.

Very many thanks David.

regards

John

Thanks for your answer.

I kinda feared that you wouldn't like my choice of words in the last sentence, but I figured that this covered the ambivalent feelings I have about it best. If I'd known exactly what this book covers beforehands I'd probably have waited for the normal release and not purchased the eARC, then enjoyed it slowly over the course of several days instead of inhaling it in hours. That's the source of my disappointment - after three consecutive books of side stories I was desperate to learn how the big picture goes forward, and then I got what I feel is essentially a fourth.

All of that was no criticism of your craftsmanship. I liked the book a lot and I enjoyed it, it just wasn't what I was expecting plotwise, and after all the hubbub and excitement about the eARC that left me disappointed.

I'm all in for more Honorverse side stories, because I frigging love your creation, the universe and characters have grown over decades and stories in there are fun to read no matter where they take please.

As I said, I enjoyed it and it definitely "worked"for me, as you put it. It's just that I feel that with this release I got a way different story than I, based on what I read in this forum over the years, expected.

clancy688 wrote:I fully agree with the main critique of this book:

I fail to see where this is a "Honor Harrington" mainline book. Because it totally isn't, and I'm really really disappointed that it isn't. Imho it was being advertised as one, yet the main plot was literally untouched. Just like another reader here I kinda regret getting the eARC, because what's in there is totally not the information I was looking for.

I really am wondering what MWW and Bean were thinking when they created this. I mean, they are reading the forums. They absolutely knew what we were expecting (a mainline novel), just as they absolutely knew what we were not expecting (another glorious side-show with almost no chronological progression).

Tl;dr:
I really feel a bit cheated here... :/

I agree, and even just from the title (before we were "treated" to anything from the book), I thought it was not going to be mainline.

clancy688 wrote:Thanks for your answer.

I kinda feared that you wouldn't like my choice of words in the last sentence, but I figured that this covered the ambivalent feelings I have about it best. If I'd known exactly what this book covers beforehands I'd probably have waited for the normal release and not purchased the eARC, then enjoyed it slowly over the course of several days instead of inhaling it in hours. That's the source of my disappointment - after three books of side stories I was desperate to learn how the big picture goes forward, and then I got what I feel is essentially a forth.

All of that was no criticism of your craftsmanship. I liked the book a lot and I enjoyed it, it just wasn't what I was expecting plotwise, and after all the hubbub and excitement about the eARC that left me disappointed.

I'm all in for more Honorverse side stories, because I frigging love your creation, the universe and characters have grown over decades and stories in there are fun to read no matter where they take please.

It's just that I feel that with this release I got a way different story than I, based on what I read in this forum over the years, expected.

Oh, trust me! I was snorting fire and spitting nails when I read it! Why, my beloved twin daughters were creeping about the house in terror and my son was hiding in his room playing on his computer just to avoid me! As for Sharon —!

Oh, it was a ugly, I promise you!

Look, anyone who does what I do for a living has to be a sensitive and creative sort in a lot of ways, but if you are also thin-skinned enough that you want to throttle someone for occasionally expressing himself or herself just a tad more . . . emphatically than you might wish when critiquing your work, you need to find a different line of employment.

I won't pretend that I'm delighted when someone expresses discontent with my work, but with a very few and very rare — and, in my opinion, deserved — exceptions, I don't take it personally because I don't think it's intended personally. There have been occasions on which I've become a bit irate with readers who have argued with me about what's happening in one of my literary universes. Not when they're less than pleased with the way I told a particular bit of the story, but about what actually happened in the story. And I do become frustrated occasionally with what I think of as the Nitpick Crowd. Those are the folks who zero in on some pet interest and over-analyze anything to do with their particular interest area absolutely to death.

Have you ever observed that science-fiction fans (and writers) tend to be a bit on the obsessive-compulsive side?

I'm glad that you enjoyed the story as a story, and in some ways you've put your finger on a major problem with a literary series. Because there's that continuity from book to book, there is also a need to get from Point A to Point B which doesn't always lend itself well to clear plot development within a particular book. Sometimes story development and plot develop aren't the same thing. They can actually become an either/or problem, and that's more likely to happen with multiple books in a series than within a single book. The Honorverse has turned into the mother of all series, in some ways, and I am, in fact, closing in on the endgame of the story line that began with On Basilisk Station. I also have things going on hundreds of light-years apart that have to impinge upon one another. That means they have to be properly sequenced, and that also plays a significant role in how each book is structured.

So I hope that the next book, which is as yet untitled, will in fact move things along properly for you. I don't have any intention of leaving you with a cliffhanger, and I also don't intend to neatly tie off all of the elements of the story when I wrap up the current storyline. Real-life doesn't work that way, and neither does a good literary series.

Take care.

Many thx for the reply, rfc.

I'm already looking forward to the next book (aren't we poor addicted fams always?).

Please tell your family I'm sorry for disturbing your domestic harmony, the wretched fan responsible for the deed will fly to Japan at once to learn how to deal properly with shame and responsibility.

(I really am, vacation starting the day after tomorrow)

"Honor's Revenge".
That's what I'm tipping for the next book's title.

Having seen far too many thin skinned authors driven away from their stories by excessive criticism, I'm glad RFC is thick skinned.

Really the only fault was our own expectations.

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

Annachie wrote:"Honor's Revenge".
That's what I'm tipping for the next book's title.

Having seen far too many thin skinned authors driven away from their stories by excessive criticism, I'm glad RFC is thick skinned.

Really the only fault was our own expectations.

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

Maybe, on the "own expectations" thing.

A successful series depends on the writer and the readers. If they aren't onboard with where it's going and how, sales wither, and the series dies or gets wrapped up in a "five-episode" season, so to speak. So if the fans are unhappy about how far a given installment goes in advancing the plot, that's a valid criticism that needs to be factored in by the writer.

There are multiple levels at which writer and readers intersect. One very well known sci-fi author (who shall remain nameless at this point) once said (I'm paraphrasing; partly so he can remain nameless) "Fans are the worst things that can happen to a writer. They start telling him how to write the story, and then the work suffers."

I disagree with what I think was his primary contention, which is that the writer should effectively ignore fan input in order to remain true to his own vision of "the work." I think fans who have invested years of their lives in a series or in an author's work deserve to be listened to. I also think they are an extremely valuable source of feedback. Do I think they're always right? Hell, no! Do I think they're often right, wither completely or partially? Yes, I certainly do.

Where I agree with the person I'm paraphrasing is that there can be only one pilot and navigator, and that has to be the storyteller. In this case, that means me. I listen to my readers and try to be respectful of their viewpoints and their desires, and, upon occasion, one of them has steered me into a rethink that I believe was fundamentally good for the story. That doesn't mean I'm going to go anywhere other than where I think I need to go or tell a story other than the one I think needs to be told, and that means, in turn, that I have to accept that every once and a while I'm going to disappoint someone who was looking for someplace I didn't go or who wanted us to get there sooner.

In a way (although it sometimes doesn't feel that way ), having your readers get pissed off with you is actually an enormous compliment. It means they cared enough about the work to invest themselves in it and to tell you if they think you hit or missed the mark, and that's what a writer wants.

Of course, if they were always delighted with every single word he ever wrote, that would be even better, but . . . .

Given that I was one of the primary noisemakers re: getting more of who we appear to be seeing in this book, I feel like I should weigh in here.

(No, I haven't read it yet. I am but a poor student without spare pocket change for eARCs of books I can't bear not to buy, and I'm not buying it twice. I am, however, an inveterate spoiler-hussy who stalks the SoV Quotes thread like it's going out of style. So.)

That pointed out, I am absolutely delighted by what I've seen so far. Lester and Michelle meeting? Aivars and Lester meeting? Helen and Aivars hugging (and making me cry)? More Michelle Henke in general? Aivars and Sinead? Dame Amandine, to whom I'd thought I'd already said goodbye (and cursed RFC to the heavens for it, naturally)? And presumably Estelle and Augustus to boot? Granted, I'd love more Eloise and Tom than we seem to be getting, but she's had plenty of time in the limelight and I'm sure will get more. (Right, Your Celeryness? )

Seriously, give me all of it. The reason I keep coming back to this series is because the scope is so huge and the world so epic, there is always more to be seen from my (many, many, many) favorite characters, and even more from the ones I just like. Call me greedy, but if winding up at October 1922 PD yet again means more of all my favorites reacting to things I thought I'd missed out on getting to see them react to, I am all for it.

And yes, by the end of the thing I'm sure I will be cursing RFC's name to the high heavens (again) and only refraining from throwing my Kobo against the wall because it's an ereader and I can't afford to replace it if I break it via temper tantrum. As a writer myself, there is absolutely nothing more satisfying to me than to make my readers weep buckets and curse me to the ninth circle of Hell. I hope RFC takes it in the spirit in which it is meant when I inevitably do the same to him.

runsforcelery wrote:
Maybe, on the "own expectations" thing.

A successful series depends on the writer and the readers. If they aren't onboard with where it's going and how, sales wither, and the series dies or gets wrapped up in a "five-episode" season, so to speak. So if the fans are unhappy about how far a given installment goes in advancing the plot, that's a valid criticism that needs to be factored in by the writer.

There are multiple levels at which writer and readers intersect. One very well known sci-fi author (who shall remain nameless at this point) once said (I'm paraphrasing; partly so he can remain nameless) "Fans are the worst things that can happen to a writer. They start telling him how to write the story, and then the work suffers."

I disagree with what I think was his primary contention, which is that the writer should effectively ignore fan input in order to remain true to his own vision of "the work." I think fans who have invested years of their lives in a series or in an author's work deserve to be listened to. I also think they are an extremely valuable source of feedback. Do I think they're always right? Hell, no! Do I think they're often right, wither completely or partially? Yes, I certainly do.

Where I agree with the person I'm paraphrasing is that there can be only one pilot and navigator, and that has to be the storyteller. In this case, that means me. I listen to my readers and try to be respectful of their viewpoints and their desires, and, upon occasion, one of them has steered me into a rethink that I believe was fundamentally good for the story. That doesn't mean I'm going to go anywhere other than where I think I need to go or tell a story other than the one I think needs to be told, and that means, in turn, that I have to accept that every once and a while I'm going to disappoint someone who was looking for someplace I didn't go or who wanted us to get there sooner.

In a way (although it sometimes doesn't feel that way ), having your readers get pissed off with you is actually an enormous compliment. It means they cared enough about the work to invest themselves in it and to tell you if they think you hit or missed the mark, and that's what a writer wants.

Of course, if they were always delighted with every single word he ever wrote, that would be even better, but . . . .

A successful series is an act of intercourse. It may be cold, as in the author provides pleasure/diversion/etc. and the reader provides cash. Your author friend appears to be in that school. It will work so long as he gives his/her readers enough pleasure/diversion/etc. to keep coming back.

But the whole intercourse thing may be a lot deeper in which a world is constructed by the author that both the author and the readers feed off of more deeply. They talk about it, mull about it, think about alternatives, want more and more. I agree this can go sometimes in a very negative way as many authors have found including Arthur Conan Doyle himself! But the whole experience is ever so much deeper. In Doyle's case, of course, so deep he tried to get out of it through literary murder.

Of course there is a danger that fans can take over too much in this second case. Intercourses of all sorts can go that way. And it is here in this second case where "expectations"--both ways--get to be more important.

I'm sorry to say my emotional state while reading was that I wanted to read every line, but as I kept reading, oh on around about Chapter 50, I slowly came to realize the plot was not going to advance which left a pretty empty feeling inside to go along with the interest in filling out all the side plots. Sure, I want to hear about all the side plots: What long time reader wouldn't? But not going anywhere forward and, as the chapters went on, coming to know it was not going to go anywhere forward left that bad feeling. It even took away from the Gotterdammerung to some degree which should have been more emotionally poignant but became more of, OK, it's done. Check. That was what I meant by the word "appalled" which is strong, but reflected my internal state. Forgive me for that, it's personal to me, not you.

And, re. "expectations" I didn't even get to see all those dead people on Beowulf! This may reflect poorly on me but I honestly kept thinking as the book rolled on: "Where is there going to be space now to kill them off?"