SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinions

Dauntless wrote:what happened at Messa was also intresting and the epilog really makes me wonder if a certain someone is actually going to dig for the truth.

Since Harnahan is one of the Alignment's Alpha Star Lines, I sort of doubt she has much interest in actually presenting the *entire* truth. Especially about Mesa; since that would no doubt require exposing things the Alignment would rather keep secret. The Alignment needed at least a *shred* of doubt about various of their claims and positions. If there wasn't any, it would have looked suspicious. She provided it. Even most of her "fact finding" in the SL was merely a means to help it's dissolution along.

lfesdaille wrote:While this book doesn't advance the major main story plot lines, it does illustrate the how far reaching the MAN efforts to discredit Manticore is or was. Additionally it does illustrate vividly how both the naval officers in the Quadrant and the Manticore Goverment approach and reaction to the discovery of the MAN alliance efforts to discredit Manticore's political reputation and stature.

I for one envision that if or when the follow on series gets written many of our beloved and new characters who have been entrusted with new command positions (Captains, and Commodores) in the last few books could have further critical roles to play in the years to come.

I for one am happy with this book as it illustrates the "politics and diplomacy" which in most other series Mil-Sci would happen off stage totally. While there isn't much direct "Boom Boom Today" in the form of direct onscreen battles, I'm not sure there would have been a neater way of bringing closure to many of the plot lines which became apparent in "TSoS".

One reality is the Honorverse has been revealed to us much like a proverbial "Onion"! Much of what we all assumed we understood when we encountered OBS has been upended!

L. F. Esdaille

Most of the events of this book would have been left off screen because they do nothing to advance the narrative. We already knew that MAlign was framing Manticore and the response would be to make the lie real. For several of the planets we'd already seen the climax of the attempted revolution. I appreciate wanting an opportunity to show some major emotional beats that got lost in the epic sprawl but that doesn't mean a novel based on them is going to work. Half the scenes feel like they should have been in an earlier novel or are there to justify including such a scene in this novel.

I was hoping this book would be like Knife of Dreams but it's more like Crossroads of Twilight. Except something actually happened in the latter.

The side-stories themselves are neat but I thought there were the short story collections for the added flourishes for the universe.

As for the bombs on Mesa, I think the lack of positive evidence against the GA will lead it to consolidating pre-existing beliefs rather than changing them.

While the book is well writen I am disappointed by the overall story.
The Firebrand makes clandestine contact -> delivers weapons -> revolt breaks out -> RNM arrives in the last moment/early enough is interesting. But we did not need that story like 5 times, even through RFC added a nice little variation to each of them.
We did not need the whole MA implements Houdini ruthlessly story line, that fact was very well established. The only new thing was Albrecht Detweiler not making it, which also did not make sense. It is not like the GA knew who to look for. He could have easily laid low for a little while, tried to get to Darius later and only suicided if and when he got caught.
I did not like the whole Mike gathers forces story line. She could have scrounged some ground troopers from Talbot split her forces and take out Mesa and Meyers at the same time. Both systems were essentially undefended compared to her naval strength and time was of the essence.
What was the point of the whole Zachariah McBryde and the Gaul story line in Cauldron of Ghosts if he arrives in Darrius anyway. I assuming that character does something relevant at some point.
Also what is the point of establishing another group of SL officers getting suspicious about things independently from al-Fanudahi and then deciding to work with al-Fanudahi, when al-Fanudahi is already established

noblehunter wrote:

vovchara wrote:so... for people who skipped 3rd of "Shadow of Freedom", because of all those characters/stories causing a severe case of "not giving a damn", we could expect the same from this one?

Yep. Skipping this book won't have any impact on your ability to understand the next book.

Which seems like a fairly strong condemnation of it.

I wouldn't go quite that far. There's probably one chapter's worth of material in it that would make any follow-on at least a bit more understandable.

For example, the parts about the Maya Sector and Erewhon. Maybe some of the internal Solly investigation. The addition of Havenite units taking a role in what, up to now, was basically just an issue for the RMN. Possibly some of the info about the new class of ship Ginger's captaining.

But basically the rest of it seems mostly waste; as far as the continuation of the story line goes.

After all, the main story line is what is likely to turn into some sort of 3-way conflict between the Alliance, the Alignment, and the SL.

To be honest, most of the book, to me, was 'fluff'. If we had to get a "blow by blow" narrative, then why not more about Hongbo after Gold Peak captured Meyers? Or even maybe a little more about the internal politics there and how it progressed in the month or so she waited there before moving on to Mesa once she heard Tourville had arrived in Montana?

That would seem to me much more interesting than soup in a restaurant full of revolutionaries. Or further proof that some of those secret police were really, really bad guys. Has there *ever* been a secret police force that wasn't, after all? LOL

To be honest, I found the parts about Rozak's cooking more interesting than any other meal narrative in the book. It made him into a more interesting, multi-faceted character rather than a little bit better than the (mostly) unknown he was before.

lfesdaille wrote:While this book doesn't advance the major main story plot lines, it does illustrate the how far reaching the MAN efforts to discredit Manticore is or was. Additionally it does illustrate vividly how both the naval officers in the Quadrant and the Manticore Goverment approach and reaction to the discovery of the MAN alliance efforts to discredit Manticore's political reputation and stature.

Actually, most of it *doesn't*. I mean, we already had most of that in the prior novel about the Talbot Cluster area. There's only a couple of sentences here that really change the scope - namely where there's a mention of it extending from Talbot all the way *past* the Mayan sector. That could have just as easily been mentioned in the previous book; Mobius was already known to be close to Talbot, and Loomis could easily have been described as being on the other side of Maya.

noblehunter wrote:As for the bombs on Mesa, I think the lack of positive evidence against the GA will lead it to consolidating pre-existing beliefs rather than changing them.

If the Alignment had had the bombs delivered from orbit, then I think any attempt to associate them with Manticore might have been more believable. With nothing to tie them to any nearby Alliance ship, atmospheric craft, or ground force, it's going to be hard to say "the Manties did it".

OrlandoNative wrote:

noblehunter wrote:As for the bombs on Mesa, I think the lack of positive evidence against the GA will lead it to consolidating pre-existing beliefs rather than changing them.

If the Alignment had had the bombs delivered from orbit, then I think any attempt to associate them with Manticore might have been more believable. With nothing to tie them to any nearby Alliance ship, atmospheric craft, or ground force, it's going to be hard to say "the Manties did it".

Manty stealth systems. It'll be conspiracy theory level thinking but accusing the Mesan Alignment will sound the same, if one already doubts its existence.

Though it seems like the timing of the bombs would demonstrate a single point source for the detonation command. They might even be able to pinpoint Albrecht's location.

noblehunter wrote:They might even be able to pinpoint Albrecht's location.

"Yes, ma'am. Judging from the timing of the explosions, we can state with a high degree of confidence that the signal came from that big radioactive crater that used to be a beach...
"No, ma'am, I don't think we'll ever be able to find out just who pressed the button..."

noblehunter wrote:Manty stealth systems. It'll be conspiracy theory level thinking but accusing the Mesan Alignment will sound the same, if one already doubts its existence.

Though it seems like the timing of the bombs would demonstrate a single point source for the detonation command. They might even be able to pinpoint Albrecht's location.

I sort of doubt you could stealth something like that. It's like one of our rocket re-entries, it's not exactly hard to miss with the glowing from air friction.

You're talking about speed of light. On a planetary surface. And "timings" would be on the order of nanoseconds or maybe microseconds. Not exactly easy to measure without at least some preparation.

In any case, since Albrecht was at "ground zero" of one of the larger nukes, I sort of doubt you're going to find any trace of him. Or his wife.

Torlek wrote:What was the point of the whole Zachariah McBryde and the Gaul story line in Cauldron of Ghosts if he arrives in Darrius anyway. I assuming that character does something relevant at some point.

I had assumed he was going to be our sympathetic viewpoint character on Darius.